Phony Connections: What Relationships Ring False in DC?

[Agent Z]

Donna and Cassie haven't benefited from the Titans/Young Justice books since the 90s. They're portrayed as either useless, underdeveloped jobbers with no relevance or subjects to annoying romantic drama no one cares for. Playing second fiddle to Diana can't possibly be worse than that.

The argument that Diana and Donna didn't originally have a close relationship is a weak one. Whether you like it or not, not everything about DC's characters is worth keeping the same as it originally was and this applies to Wonder Woman. And I cannot understand the logic that Diana shouldn't have a developed bond with the characters who were spinoffs of her.

[dietrich]

Jason's had a lot of character development. I think people judge him a little too much by just UTRH and Morrison's Batman and Robin.

I don't know about others but I'm judging him based on RHATO, UTRH, B&R, BFTC, Brothers in Blood etc Jason has done his father and brothers wrong in many titles and many story arcs and is yet to show any remorse.


The fact that Bruce would say to him that it's fine if he kills so long as he keeps it out of Gotham. That kind of writing does break the Batman mythos. That wasn't from any of the titles you mentioned. That was from Jason's last ongoing.

Jason attacking Tim at Titans Towers, threatening to kill innocent teens that never did a thing to him simply because they are associated to one of his brothers. Those aren't from the stories you mentioned and those are some of the reasons why i don't think his brother will be cool with him.

There are killers in the Batfamily and 4 out of the 5 Robins has killed [has Steph killed?] but the difference is that with the others they seem conflicted and have tried to redeem themselves. Jason doesn't seem to be against killing and doesn't like Batman's methods.

He doesn't seem remorseful for his past transgressions either.

Batwoman killed and she got banished.
Damian kills and he got abandoned by every hero in Gotham [according to the solicits for batman v Robin] Jason kills and he gets batman's endorsement and everyone including his victims act like it never happened.

I just don't don't think they'll be that cool with him. the writers haven't earned the dynamic they are trying to sell us.

There's a large chunk of the relationships healing and working through stuff that they forgot to write.

[redmax99]

I don't know about others but I'm judging him based on RHATO, UTRH, B&R, BFTC, Brothers in Blood etc Jason has done his father and brothers wrong in many titles and many story arcs and is yet to show any remorse.


The fact that Bruce would say to him that it's fine if he kills so long as he keeps it out of Gotham. That kind of writing does break the Batman mythos. That wasn't from any of the titles you mentioned. That was from Jason's last ongoing.

Jason attacking Tim at Titans Towers, threatening to kill innocent teens that never did a thing to him simply because they are associated to one of his brothers. Those aren't from the stories you mentioned and those are some of the reasons why i don't think his brother will be cool with him.

There are killers in the Batfamily and 4 out of the 5 Robins has killed [has Steph killed?] but the difference is that with the others they seem conflicted and have tried to redeem themselves. Jason doesn't seem to be against killing and doesn't like Batman's methods.

He doesn't seem remorseful for his past transgressions either.

Batwoman killed and she got banished.
Damian kills and he got abandoned by every hero in Gotham [according to the solicits for batman v Robin] Jason kills and he gets batman's endorsement and everyone including his victims act like it never happened.

I just don't don't think they'll be that cool with him. the writers haven't earned the dynamic they are trying to sell us.

There's a large chunk of the relationships healing and working through stuff that they forgot to write.

in as the crows files before utrh bruce hallucinate jason and basically said he knows jason a killer and that it'll be a lot of dead people and he'd still forgive and love him. Bruce a hypocrite when it comes to jason but he always kept his word about jason no matter the body count.

[dietrich]

in as the crows files before utrh bruce hallucinate jason and basically said he knows jason a killer and that it'll be a lot of dead people and he'd still forgive and love him. Bruce a hypocrite when it comes to jason but he always kept his word about jason no matter the body count.

Didn't Bruce try to trick Jason into reliving his death just so he could use the knowelegde to bring another robin? That doesn't sound like love.

Bruce has double standards but I don't think Bruce loves Jason so much he'd easily forgive him attempting to kill to all his other sons.

I'm sorry that just doesn't track even for a character like Bruce who like we know is a hypocrite and plays favourites so openly.

Doesn't track when you consider that Bruce was so unforgiving he put Jason in hospital for shooting Penguin with a rubber bullet.

I'll repeat. I don't buy it. there are steps and stories missing. Writers need to make it make sense.

[Fergus]

Didn't Bruce try to trick Jason into reliving his death just so he could use the knowelegde to bring another robin? That doesn't sound like love.

Bruce has double standards but I don't think Bruce loves Jason so much he'd easily forgive him attempting to kill to all his other sons.

I'm sorry that just doesn't track even for a character like Bruce who like we know is a hypocrite and plays favourites so openly.

Doesn't track when you consider that Bruce was so unforgiving he put Jason in hospital for shooting Penguin with a rubber bullet.

I'll repeat. I don't buy it. there are steps and stories missing. Writers need to make it make sense.

Bruce is a hypocrite with strange priorities but he loves his kids.

Damian is a killer and yet Bruce accepts him . He even goes as far as hiding Damian's misdeeds from the rest of the family.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch for Bruce to accept Jason or Damian into the fold after their actions.

i do think that the relationship between the bat siblings and Jason feels phoney and that includes Duke and Jason's relationship.

That's not earned and I don't see any reason why they should be that forgiving and trusting.

Their relationship happened off panel. We jumped from Jason trying to blow Tim up to Jason and Tim being best buds.

What happened in between? Where's the story where they work things out? Where's the story where Jason says sorry I shot you Damian? The story where Damian says sorry I attacked you Jason? Or the story where Jason says Look Grayson I'm sorry i tried to end you multiple times and tried to destroy Nightwing. It was Pit madness.

You can't just handwave all those events. They happened and we can't just pretend they didn't.

[OOPS]

Didn't Bruce try to trick Jason into reliving his death just so he could use the knowelegde to bring another robin? That doesn't sound like love.

Bruce has double standards but I don't think Bruce loves Jason so much he'd easily forgive him attempting to kill to all his other sons.

I'm sorry that just doesn't track even for a character like Bruce who like we know is a hypocrite and plays favourites so openly.

Doesn't track when you consider that Bruce was so unforgiving he put Jason in hospital for shooting Penguin with a rubber bullet.

I'll repeat. I don't buy it. there are steps and stories missing. Writers need to make it make sense.

I didnt see Bruce trying to get Jason to remember his death was Bruce not loving Jason. I saw it as grief. In real life, families do all kinds of unhealthy things to each other during loss...just look at all the fights that break out during funerals.

[king81992]

Bruce is a hypocrite with strange priorities but he loves his kids.

Damian is a killer and yet Bruce accepts him . He even goes as far as hiding Damian's misdeeds from the rest of the family.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch for Bruce to accept Jason or Damian into the fold after their actions.

i do think that the relationship between the bat siblings and Jason feels phoney and that includes Duke and Jason's relationship.

That's not earned and I don't see any reason why they should be that forgiving and trusting.

Their relationship happened off panel. We jumped from Jason trying to blow Tim up to Jason and Tim being best buds.

What happened in between? Where's the story where they work things out? Where's the story where Jason says sorry I shot you Damian? The story where Damian says sorry I attacked you Jason? Or the story where Jason says Look Grayson I'm sorry i tried to end you multiple times and tried to destroy Nightwing. It was Pit madness.

You can't just handwave all those events. They happened and we can't just pretend they didn't.

Damian and the Al Ghuls always get a free pass from Batman, their his family. Would Bruce be so lenient on Dick, Tim, Steph, Batabara and Cass if they did half the stuff Damian, Talia and Ras have done?That whole dynamic is why Shadow War left a bad taste in my mouth.

[dietrich]

I didnt see Bruce trying to get Jason to remember his death was Bruce not loving Jason. I saw it as grief. In real life, families do all kinds of unhealthy things to each other during loss...just look at all the fights that break out during funerals.

I'm aware that was due to grief and I didn't say he didn't love him but I don't think/we haven't been shown that Bruce loves Jason so much more above the rest to make a special rule for him.

There's so much contradiction in text from various writers it makes it hard to decipher their relationship.

Bruce does let Jason get away with much more than he lets other Robins but at the same time he's also very cruel to Jason.

It reads like a lack of care and consideration which makes Jason being so close with the Bat's phoney.

[dietrich]

Damian and the Al Ghuls always get a free pass from Batman, their his family. Would Bruce be so lenient on Dick, Tim, Steph, Batabara and Cass if they did half the stuff Damian, Talia and Ras have done?That whole dynamic is why Shadow War left a bad taste in my mouth.

Didn't Bruce send Damian back after batman and Son when he hurt Tim?
Didn't Bruce plan to send Damian back during Inc just based on a vision?

Isn't Damian currently exiled from the Bats for 'being evil' or whatever ?

No Bruce isn't easy on Damian. The opposite is actually true.

[Fergus]

Damian and the Al Ghuls always get a free pass from Batman, their his family. Would Bruce be so lenient on Dick, Tim, Steph, Batabara and Cass if they did half the stuff Damian, Talia and Ras have done?That whole dynamic is why Shadow War left a bad taste in my mouth.

Not always and it's not just Jason,Damian or the Al Ghuls.

The reality is that Bruce gives a free pass to a lot of people. Especially those who do him sexual favours and their relatives.

If Bruce has emotional attachments to a character then expect double standards. The Al ghuls and Damian aren't an exception.

He does the same for Catwoman.

We have seen him punish these guys ,@dietrich listed some examples for Damian and we have examples for Talia and selina from the comics but mostly he does tend to let them get away with things he'd normally punish a regular joe for.

Bruce would 1000% be that lenient to Dick. What you think he'll have Dick locked up for killing? Dick did kill and Bruce didn't have him locked up.

I don't expect Bruce to treat Steph like he treats his kids and his lovers so I'm not sure how he'll react to Steph doing the things that Damian and Jason did [and neither do you lets be honest]

We are all hypocrites and apply double standards when it comes to people we have a certain type of love for.

We are human. These characters are human. I expect them to act human. I expect bruce to treat his kids and the greatest loves of his life a lot different from other people.

TRhat's why I don't see anything phoney in Bruce welcoming Jason back into the family

[Confuzzled]

I agree. Makes no sense, and makes Nightwing petty and self centered. The contrast between how Nightwing treats "Super" man ( aka somone who is physically invulnerable, in a supportive family, in a stable realionship, has available friends and has financial resources) and his own brothers (both of whom are have died-at least once-again-in the past year, have villians as "friends", have no family support, and no apparent resources) paints Nightwing in a very dark light. I just don't buy Nightwing as that self centered.

Many people are more open and less awkward around people who aren't their own family. It's not a big deal.

[OOPS]

Many people are more open and less awkward around people who aren't their own family. It's not a big deal.

Well, it might not be a big deal for you, but for me it broke the characterization of my favor character and played a large part of me dropping the run.

The size of the deal is subjective.

[king81992]

I'm aware that was due to grief and I didn't say he didn't love him but I don't think/we haven't been shown that Bruce loves Jason so much more above the rest to make a special rule for him.

There's so much contradiction in text from various writers it makes it hard to decipher their relationship.

Bruce does let Jason get away with much more than he lets other Robins but at the same time he's also very cruel to Jason.

It reads like a lack of care and consideration which makes Jason being so close with the Bat's phoney.

Bruce's relationship with Jason is complicated. He's not lenient on Jason because he's a favorite, the leniency comes from his own guilt about letting Jason die. He's also cruel to Jason because he doesn't approve of him killing folk. It's very contradictory, but sort of makes sense considering their relationship and Batman's inclination towards hypocrisy.

[king81992]

Not always and it's not just Jason,Damian or the Al Ghuls.

The reality is that Bruce gives a free pass to a lot of people. Especially those who do him sexual favours and their relatives.

If Bruce has emotional attachments to a character then expect double standards. The Al ghuls and Damian aren't an exception.

He does the same for Catwoman.

We have seen him punish these guys ,@dietrich listed some examples for Damian and we have examples for Talia and selina from the comics but mostly he does tend to let them get away with things he'd normally punish a regular joe for.

Bruce would 1000% be that lenient to Dick. What you think he'll have Dick locked up for killing? Dick did kill and Bruce didn't have him locked up.

I don't expect Bruce to treat Steph like he treats his kids and his lovers so I'm not sure how he'll react to Steph doing the things that Damian and Jason did [and neither do you lets be honest]

We are all hypocrites and apply double standards when it comes to people we have a certain type of love for.

We are human. These characters are human. I expect them to act human. I expect bruce to treat his kids and the greatest loves of his life a lot different from other people.

TRhat's why I don't see anything phoney in Bruce welcoming Jason back into the family

Catwoman, I can understand (although I have mixed feelings about it), since at her worst, she never went as far as Talia and Ras.

Bruce never liked Steph, so he would probably be harsh on her. I also can't imagine Steph doing the thing Jason or Damian have done.

Bruce welcoming Jason back wasn't phoney. It makes sense based on what we've seen from Bruce.

[Fergus]

Bruce's relationship with Jason is complicated. He's not lenient on Jason because he's a favorite, the leniency comes from his own guilt about letting Jason die. He's also cruel to Jason because he doesn't approve of him killing folk. It's very contradictory, but sort of makes sense considering their relationship and Batman's inclination towards hypocrisy.

I wholeheartedly agree. However...

Talking about Double standards.

Jason died once under Bruce's watch and you call it guilt.


Damian dies multiple times under Bruce's watch while saving the world and you call it getting a free pass.

The 2nd Time Damian gave his life, Bruce was literally a few steps away arguing with Talia [talk about letting your kid die]