Phony Connections: What Relationships Ring False in DC?

[king81992]

Black Adam ticks me off even more. This genocidal terrorist has literally blown up a nation and killed children and other heroes!!! WTF is he in the League or the Society? He is more of a villain than Harley and as much of a villain as Cheshire. Why the free pass?

If I remember right, Black Adam wound up on the JSA because they wanted to keep an eye on him or something.

Black Adam's role on the JL recently made no sense.

[Aahz]

Jason and the bat family.

Depends I think with Bruce, Tim and Damian it kind of makes sense, but how they write him together with Dick and Barbara doesn't really make sense if you consider how little they interacted during his time as Robin.

Also Duke and the "Robins" especially in Batman Vol 3 #33.

Batman and Catwoman when written by Tom King.

[thefinalguy]

They seemed pretty close in NTT and for Donna's wedding.

Outside of Donna's death that is the only thing I can think of where you really hear/see how close they are.

Donna was never a direct sidekick but her presence was convoluted and confusing from the start. If you fill in the blanks, however, she would've been living in Man's World since she was 14/15 so she and Diana should've gotten close. It's just something they failed to chronicle back in the day and Donna eventually ended up as an adult before it could be handled. Doesn't help she and Diana have an even looser connection since the N52.

[Agent Z]

They seemed pretty close in NTT and for Donna's wedding.

They were also close in the Jiminez run.

[Psy-lock]

Diana and Donna had a believable relationship pre-crisis. They didn't interact much, but at least it made sense for them to care for each other. Then Donna's past with Diana the Amazons was almost completely erased, but some writers still portray them as close sisters (clearly with Donna's original origin in mind).

It's frustrating, because it's very easy to fix: restore the original origin (or something close to it) and give Donna her own Year One story to properly establish her past and relationships.

[Tzigone]

Black Adam ticks me off even more. This genocidal terrorist has literally blown up a nation and killed children and other heroes!!! WTF is he in the League or the Society? He is more of a villain than Harley and as much of a villain as Cheshire. Why the free pass?

It's a problem with a lot of popular villains, and a trope that annoys me greatly.

They seemed pretty close in NTT and for Donna's wedding.

Yeah, and in-context that, to me, very much came out of nowhere as there was nothing on-page prior to indicate such a relationship.

Donna was never a direct sidekick but her presence was convoluted and confusing from the start. If you fill in the blanks, however, she would've been living in Man's World since she was 14/15 so she and Diana should've gotten close.

See, there I don't agree. They are in the same country, so obviously they'll become close? Why, when they have little prior history of being close? Sure, they could have, but there's no particular reason they should have, IMO, rather than Donna (as she did) forging separate relationships. Of course, I also think of Donna a 16 then, not the retconned younger age, since she was the same age as Dick in the '80s, and he was seemingly 16 in Original Teen Titans era, and Wally was introduced as a ninth grader.

Edit: now that I think about it, did Donna actually live in man's world before the Amazon's left, or was she commuting back in her OTT days? I remember a whole thing where she was living in headquarters right after the Amazons left, but can't recall the details.

[Psy-lock]

Yeah, and in-context that, to me, very much came out of nowhere as there was nothing on-page prior to indicate such a relationship.

You're making it sound like they're complete strangers. Diana was the one who rescued Donna and she knew her for two whole decades by that point. Hippolyta was the one who raised her, but Diana was still involved in her life since she visited Themiscyra regularly.

[mathew101281]

Keeping the Wondergirls separate from Diana always seemed like a missed opportunity to me. One of the biggest problems with the Wonderwoman franchise is the inconsistency of the supporting cast. Her franchise is the only one where the junior versions of the hero don’t play a major role, and the primary love interest disappears for months on end. Could you imagine if Lois Lane didn’t show up in Superman books for years?

As far as unearned relationships go, I’d have to say Powergirl and Terra3 has to be up their, they just seems like two people who randomly met each other and decided to hang out. Then there are those weird scenes that seem to be shipping bate between them. All I could say while reading those scenes was “you do realize that Terra is a minor right? If not physically, both emotionally and age wise. Where are we going with this?”

[Agent Z]

Keeping the Wondergirls separate from Diana always seemed like a missed opportunity to me. One of the biggest problems with the Wonderwoman franchise is the inconsistency of the supporting cast. Her franchise is the only one where the junior versions of the hero don’t play a major role, and the primary love interest disappears for months on end. Could you imagine if Lois Lane didn’t show up in Superman books for years?

You mean like in the New 52?

As far as unearned relationships go, I’d have to say Powergirl and Terra3 has to be up their, they just seems like two people who randomly met each other and decided to hang out.

That's the point. They start out as strangers and build a friendship from there. Numerous stories are built on this premise. It doesn't make Karen and Terra's relationship inauthentic just because they didn't know each other prior to the series.

Then there are those weird scenes that seem to be shipping bate between them. All I could say while reading those scenes was “you do realize that Terra is a minor right? If not physically, both emotionally and age wise. Where are we going with this?”

I think you were reading way too much into those scenes.

[king81992]

Keeping the Wondergirls separate from Diana always seemed like a missed opportunity to me. One of the biggest problems with the Wonderwoman franchise is the inconsistency of the supporting cast. Her franchise is the only one where the junior versions of the hero don’t play a major role, and the primary love interest disappears for months on end. Could you imagine if Lois Lane didn’t show up in Superman books for years?

As far as unearned relationships go, I’d have to say Powergirl and Terra3 has to be up their, they just seems like two people who randomly met each other and decided to hang out. Then there are those weird scenes that seem to be shipping bate between them. All I could say while reading those scenes was “you do realize that Terra is a minor right? If not physically, both emotionally and age wise. Where are we going with this?”

That's mostly due to Diana being the most consistent person in her own franchise. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, because if Diana was inconsistent as everything else in her franchise, things would be even more ridiculous.

[thefinalguy]

See, there I don't agree. They are in the same country, so obviously they'll become close? Why, when they have little prior history of being close? Sure, they could have, but there's no particular reason they should have, IMO, rather than Donna (as she did) forging separate relationships. Of course, I also think of Donna a 16 then, not the retconned younger age, since she was the same age as Dick in the '80s, and he was seemingly 16 in Original Teen Titans era, and Wally was introduced as a ninth grader.

Edit: now that I think about it, did Donna actually live in man's world before the Amazon's left, or was she commuting back in her OTT days? I remember a whole thing where she was living in headquarters right after the Amazons left, but can't recall the details.

Donna would've been a teen leaving home and going to a foreign place, I don't see why Diana would abandon her. I do think her being a bit older and wanting independence is a realistic thing, but Diana would realistically make herself available to help guide her and be there for her. It fits within the confines of the characters we know, just not the stories that have been told.

And, yeah the Fab Five might've been older initially but I've always chalked up their history to them forming barely into their teens and then dropping off around the time they go to college. I don't think post-Crisis ever specified that outside of flashbacks making them very young. Because Wally was maybe a year younger than Dick and Donna in NTT because he was in college already.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Donna being given the agency to be her own hero, I just can't see Diana not being there for her outside of that.

And, good point about where Donna lived I can't remember myself or if it was one of those things that got glossed over. I like the idea she lived with Diana.

Sidenote: Was Donna ever in school in Man's World? I know she attended NYU in the NTT days but I can't recall them specifying her in school, but then again I don't think the 60s/70s era referenced that until Dick was in Hudson. We really need a run about the early days of the TT so many loose ends.

[Tzigone]

Donna would've been a teen leaving home and going to a foreign place, I don't see why Diana would abandon her. I do think her being a bit older and wanting independence is a realistic thing, but Diana would realistically make herself available to help guide her and be there for her. It fits within the confines of the characters we know, just not the stories that have been told.

I don't think Diana not being there equals Diana "abandoning" Donna. Sure, Diana would come if Donna called and needed help, but if she didn't, she didn't. There's not much indication of Donna needing "guiding." Even when Donna went to man's world as a teenager, it was an exciting adventure for her. It's like a high-schooler on road trip with friends - don't want adults around.

Donna was seemingly living with her mother Hippolyta until 1969 (the year she and Dick turned 18), as far I can tell from issue 22. She had her "transformation" to adulthood (as did all the then Teen Titans), and thereafter acted an adult. She'd spent a couple years hanging out frequently in man's world then, and it no longer seemed "foreign" to her. So, in short, yes, I think Diana would have made herself available if Donna needed her, but I don't think Donna was ever shown needing her or there was any reason the two would choose to be close or spend significant time together, given the way they were depicted in the silver and bronze ages. I also think if Donna did need someone, it would far more likely and reasonably be Hippolyta or one of her fellow Titans than Diana.

Sidenote: Was Donna ever in school in Man's World? I know she attended NYU in the NTT days but I can't recall them specifying her in school, but then again I don't think the 60s/70s era referenced that until Dick was in Hudson. We really need a run about the early days of the TT so many loose ends.

Where are you getting NYU from? It's been a while since I read, but I recall that Donna immediately became a professional photographer and never attended college (at least pre-COIE). And, no, so far as I can recall, she's never attended any type of school in Man's world, pre-COIE.

[Digifiend]

Because they are. Donna Troy was specifically created for the Titans.

By accident. Wonder Girl did already exist - but her stories were either flashbacks to Diana's childhood or impossible stories in which a time displaced teenage Wonder Girl would team up with the adult Wonder Woman. She was basically her version of Superboy, not Robin. The writer who created the Teen Titans team didn't realise that and used Wonder Girl by mistake, thus accidentally creating Donna.

[John Venus]

The problem with the Wonder Girls is that they aren't allowed to be both WW characters and Titans characters. It's always an either/or situation and usually the Titans franchise wins. It's not because Donna was created in the Titans books, Cassie was originated in the WW books as well and had a relationship with Diana but her appearances in the WW books became limited once she joined YJ and later the Titans. It doesn't help that both Donna and Cassie wind up with sordid romantic story arcs in the Titans books.

Writers like Byrne, Jiminez, Simone and Rucka have all tried to develop the WW-WG dynamic but faced many editorial hurdles along the way. But just because something is under developed doesn't mean it should remain under developed.

[Tzigone]

The problem with the Wonder Girls is that they aren't allowed to be both WW characters and Titans characters. It's always an either/or situation and usually the Titans franchise wins. It's not because Donna was created in the Titans books, Cassie was originated in the WW books as well and had a relationship with Diana but her appearances in the WW books became limited once she joined YJ and later the Titans.

It's frustrating to some, I know. I'm not so big on the superhero "families" so less to me.

It's logical they aren't in both, to a degree. That would mean that one writer isn't free to use them as they like because it might interfere with the other writer's plans. They could coordinate, of course, but it still offers restrictions. It also makes sense for the Titans to "win" - they are the stars in the Titans (even if part of an ensemble), and supporting characters in WW.

I personally deeply dislike the notion of their storylines being determined by the Diana's-character-plot-needs. That's what her supporting cast (if she could ever keep a steady one) is for, certainly, but that's why I don't like them as supporting cast - I've seen them as the stars and diminishing them from having plots to forward them to having plots to forward Diana doesn't work for me. Plus, in-unvierse, it's absolutely depressing that they play hero-support or second fiddle to Diana forever. I hate that for Dick, too. It's fine while they're kids, but I want the young heroes to spread their wings and move on after they grow up. When they are part of the "family", they must remain subordinate to WW (or Batman for Dick) in all events and end up following their lead, never shining as brightly, etc. Probably doesn't hurt that I like Donna, Dick, and Cassie better than Bruce and Diana (especially Bruce).