Is there a loophole to save or bring back Ben Reilly?

[All Star Superman]

I was there for the first clone story, the Clone Saga mess, and all the subsequent stories to follow. I still think killing off Ben Reilly was one of Marvel's worst decisions in all the decades of its history. The same goes for bringing back Norman Osborn, but that's another discussion entirely.

I'm not so spry anymore so my memory isn't what it used to be, but is there any room in the 90s Clone Saga or the sequels that allows for the return of the heroic Ben Reilly? Not the guy cloned from (allegedy) Ben's clone remains or the current iteration that's now a villain. Could it be that Norman (ugh) or Miles Warren replaced Ben with another clone before that "final" battle in Peter Parker: Spider-Man 75? I know anything can happen in comics, but I'm wondering how feasible it would be in light of the last few years' worth of stories.

For my part, I'd make it simple: the real Ben has been in cold storage for years, occasionally studied by Warren and then put back in (not unlike Buck as WS). He gets free or is found and is now a man out of time, if only a few "comic book years." He reunites with Peter, is grateful his own life never got that complicated, and heads out to start a new life...again. This time, he's a globe-swinging hero and his book changes setting with every arc. An itinerant Scarlet Spider or maybe he decides on a new name...Web-Man?

No matter his code name, Ben's the hero he was in the old days and his book is the one Spider-Title allowed to be something rare these days: fun.

[Refrax5]

I was there for the first clone story, the Clone Saga mess, and all the subsequent stories to follow. I still think killing off Ben Reilly was one of Marvel's worst decisions in all the decades of its history. The same goes for bringing back Norman Osborn, but that's another discussion entirely.

I'm not so spry anymore so my memory isn't what it used to be, but is there any room in the 90s Clone Saga or the sequels that allows for the return of the heroic Ben Reilly? Not the guy cloned from (allegedy) Ben's clone remains or the current iteration that's now a villain. Could it be that Norman (ugh) or Miles Warren replaced Ben with another clone before that "final" battle in Peter Parker: Spider-Man 75? I know anything can happen in comics, but I'm wondering how feasible it would be in light of the last few years' worth of stories.

For my part, I'd make it simple: the real Ben has been in cold storage for years, occasionally studied by Warren and then put back in (not unlike Buck as WS). He gets free or is found and is now a man out of time, if only a few "comic book years." He reunites with Peter, is grateful his own life never got that complicated, and heads out to start a new life...again. This time, he's a globe-swinging hero and his book changes setting with every arc. An itinerant Scarlet Spider or maybe he decides on a new name...Web-Man?

No matter his code name, Ben's the hero he was in the old days and his book is the one Spider-Title allowed to be something rare these days: fun.

I'm not a big fan of retconning a story in a way that makes things even more convoluted and invalidates stories that people paid money for and invested in for years.

It's really simple to fix him. His initial descent into madness was caused by his soul being damaged, which was fixed. This was caused by his artificial memories being tampered with until he suffered a full mental collapse, but even the guy who wrote the story said another writer could easily fix Ben's memories and have his mind restored.

As it is, his insanity was caused by external forces and is easy to fix him and move on. It worked fine for Hal Jordan and Wally West. It's a lot simpler than trying to explain away years worth of stories with further retcons and convoluted twists. Just restore his mind, make him Scarlet Spider or a Spider-Man again and move on.

[Matt Rat]

I was there for the first clone story, the Clone Saga mess, and all the subsequent stories to follow. I still think killing off Ben Reilly was one of Marvel's worst decisions in all the decades of its history. The same goes for bringing back Norman Osborn, but that's another discussion entirely.

I'm not so spry anymore so my memory isn't what it used to be, but is there any room in the 90s Clone Saga or the sequels that allows for the return of the heroic Ben Reilly? Not the guy cloned from (allegedy) Ben's clone remains or the current iteration that's now a villain. Could it be that Norman (ugh) or Miles Warren replaced Ben with another clone before that "final" battle in Peter Parker: Spider-Man 75? I know anything can happen in comics, but I'm wondering how feasible it would be in light of the last few years' worth of stories.

You should read Ben Reilly: Spider-Man, it leans heavily into the possibility Conspiracy/Beyond Ben could be Spidercide

[HypnoHustler]

It’s comics. Anything is possible. Ben came back from dust in the first place, which was also kind of ridiculous.

Yeah, the Spidercide stuff is one back-door they could use.

Chasm hasn’t done anything irredeemable yet (though I fear that will change with Dark Web), so hypothetically if Peter helps him get his memories and personality back he could still “fix” him. Though I highly doubt Wells and Lowe are giving up on the Chasm concept any time soon.

[Huntsman Spider]

It’s comics. Anything is possible. Ben came back from dust in the first place, which was also kind of ridiculous.

Yeah, the Spidercide stuff is one back-door they could use.

Chasm hasn’t done anything irredeemable yet (though I fear that will change with Dark Web), so hypothetically if Peter helps him get his memories and personality back he could still “fix” him. Though I highly doubt Wells and Lowe are giving up on the Chasm concept any time soon.

Technically, the genetic material from the dust he degenerated into when he died was used to whip up a new body to house his soul/spirit, and while that does stretch credulity somewhat --- it's the explanation we got. As for Spidercide, since Spidercide would likely still have the foundational memories of being Peter Parker that Ben lost, Spidercide could just wake up from the coma he's been in since The Humanity Agenda concluded, find Ben, and do a biological mind-meld to restore those very memories in Ben, bringing him back to himself. Regarding his clone "brothers," Kaine could show up again, knock Ben/Chasm around a bit, and then have Aracely/Hummingbird forge a psychic link between Ben and Kaine to help Kaine restore Ben's mind and memories again.

[HypnoHustler]

Technically, the genetic material from the dust he degenerated into when he died was used to whip up a new body to house his soul/spirit, and while that does stretch credulity somewhat --- it's the explanation we got. As for Spidercide, since Spidercide would likely still have the foundational memories of being Peter Parker that Ben lost, Spidercide could just wake up from the coma he's been in since The Humanity Agenda concluded, find Ben, and do a biological mind-meld to restore those very memories in Ben, bringing him back to himself. Regarding his clone "brothers," Kaine could show up again, knock Ben/Chasm around a bit, and then have Aracely/Hummingbird forge a psychic link between Ben and Kaine to help Kaine restore Ben's mind and memories again.

All good ideas, which means I don’t expect Marvel to use them. Hopefully though!

[Sr. Bungle]

All good ideas, which means I don’t expect Marvel to use them. Hopefully though!

Lots of loopholes. there's Kafka device to bring back memories too that was repairing previous mindwipes by Beyond.

[Matt Rat]

Technically, the genetic material from the dust he degenerated into when he died was used to whip up a new body to house his soul/spirit, and while that does stretch credulity somewhat --- it's the explanation we got.

From an unreliable narrator.

[All Star Superman]

I'm not a big fan of retconning a story in a way that makes things even more convoluted and invalidates stories that people paid money for and invested in for years.

It's really simple to fix him. His initial descent into madness was caused by his soul being damaged, which was fixed. This was caused by his artificial memories being tampered with until he suffered a full mental collapse, but even the guy who wrote the story said another writer could easily fix Ben's memories and have his mind restored.

As it is, his insanity was caused by external forces and is easy to fix him and move on. It worked fine for Hal Jordan and Wally West. It's a lot simpler than trying to explain away years worth of stories with further retcons and convoluted twists. Just restore his mind, make him Scarlet Spider or a Spider-Man again and move on.

You make some good points. I'm still bummed that Ben was brought back to be turned into a villain or even a "gray" character. That's why I'd personally prefer a retcon that establishes Ben Reilly was hidden away somewhere by Norman, say, before the events of PP:SM #75, and was forgotten.

You should read Ben Reilly: Spider-Man, it leans heavily into the possibility Conspiracy/Beyond Ben could be Spidercide

I will check that out, thanks!

Lots of loopholes. there's Kafka device to bring back memories too that was repairing previous mindwipes by Beyond.

Forgot about that...I really just skimmed through some of those issues at my LCS.

[Refrax5]

From an unreliable narrator.

Dr Strange and Death aren't unreliable narrarators and what happened to the Inheritors when they tried to absorb Ben's life energy proves they were telling the truth. You're grasping at straws.

[Sr. Bungle]

It’s comics. Anything is possible. Ben came back from dust in the first place, which was also kind of ridiculous.

Yeah, the Spidercide stuff is one back-door they could use.

Chasm hasn’t done anything irredeemable yet (though I fear that will change with Dark Web), so hypothetically if Peter helps him get his memories and personality back he could still “fix” him. Though I highly doubt Wells and Lowe are giving up on the Chasm concept any time soon.

Same her man, I'm dreading Dark Web

[Lukmendes]

You should read Ben Reilly: Spider-Man, it leans heavily into the possibility Conspiracy/Beyond Ben could be Spidercide

Considering DeMatteis has admitted he didn't know what's up with Ben in Beyond at the time, and how Spidercide himself made it clear he has no reason to want to be Ben or Spidey, that's a dubious claim.

[HypnoHustler]

Considering DeMatteis has admitted he didn't know what's up with Ben in Beyond at the time, and how Spidercide himself made it clear he has no reason to want to be Ben or Spidey, that's a dubious claim.

Not really. Retcons usually work that way… take “dubious” and obscure plot threads from the past and contort and blur the finer details enough to fit whatever needs they have for the character or storyline they’re trying to fix/alter.

[The Black Death]

Not really. Retcons usually work that way… take “dubious” and obscure plot threads from the past and contort and blur the finer details enough to fit whatever needs they have for the character or storyline they’re trying to fix/alter.

Not really, if all of that really were completely true the trilogy of Symbiote Spider-Man miniseries that are set in the past at the time when Peter first had the symbiote all the events of those miniseries would have affected the current comics in some way, which didn't happen because it didn't affect Peter and the Venom symbiote's status in the current stories at all. It's the same case with the recent miniseries set in Venom's past, The Fantastic 4, Ben Reilly: Spider-Man and the upcoming The Lost Hunt miniseries which will be set in the time when Peter and MJ were married, it will change virtually nothing to the fact that in the current stage Peter and Mary Jane are separated, with a lot of luck at most Peter and MJ will go back to just being boyfriend and girlfriend, don't hold on to a false hope that will never happen, the whole Spidercide thing will just stay in that Ben's miniseries, even more when Marvel doesn't seem to care about the events that have happened in all those miniseries, so it doesn't matter what happened in Ben's miniseries because for Marvel that miniseries is just the past and it will stay the past, that's the way things are.

[HypnoHustler]

Not really, if all of that really were completely true the trilogy of Symbiote Spider-Man miniseries that are set in the past at the time when Peter first had the symbiote all the events of those miniseries would have affected the current comics in some way, which didn't happen because it didn't affect Peter and the Venom symbiote's status in the current stories at all. It's the same case with the recent miniseries set in Venom's past, The Fantastic 4, Ben Reilly: Spider-Man and the upcoming The Lost Hunt miniseries which will be set in the time when Peter and MJ were married, it will change virtually nothing to the fact that in the current stage Peter and Mary Jane are separated, with a lot of luck at most Peter and MJ will go back to just being boyfriend and girlfriend, don't hold on to a false hope that will never happen, the whole Spidercide thing will just stay in that Ben's miniseries, even more when Marvel doesn't seem to care about the events that have happened in all those miniseries, so it doesn't matter what happened in Ben's miniseries because for Marvel that miniseries is just the past and it will stay the past, that's the way things are.

Honestly, I think you missed my point, but it’s fine. I’m too exhausted to argue against circular reasoning. Retcons twisting subplots from the past that weren’t originally meant to be used that way isn’t anything new. The most obvious example is when Peter David revised the Hulk’s original gray color to be representative of its own persona (Joe Fixit). Stan Lee definitely didn’t intend it that way (I think the original reason he went from gray to green was due to coloring problems). Likewise, if some future writer decides to capitalize on Spidercide inserting some of his essence into Ben, that’s also fine even if DeMatteis didn’t intend it (and I’m sure he would agree).