Is there a loophole to save or bring back Ben Reilly?

[Somecrazyaussie]

I don't think he's nearly that difficult to repair, at least at this point. Hal Jordan had gone much further down the villainy rabbit hole at the Distinguished Competition and they managed to fix him in the space of about 20 pages.

Right now, you make the Chasm goop into a symbiote like entity to take the blame for anything villainous done as Chasm. Then you restore his Parker memories. Boom, Ben is back in the game. You probably need an issue or two to work out all the baggage with the major players (Pete, MJ, Kaine) but then he should be good to go.

Will Marvel do that? No. I expect Ben will remain a villain so long as the current editorial regime is in place. And they may deliberately try to make the character irredeemable in some way to try and make sure it sticks afterwards. But, like Dan Slott before them who refused to understand Ben and what he brings to the mythos, eventually they too will go away. And maybe, just maybe, we'll get somebody in the big chairs who has a tiny bit of respect for Ben Reilly fans.

You can see the obvious back door built in place to reverse and redeem Ben down the line. But I feel that Marvel really likes the idea of a twisted, villainous version of Spider-man in play. Especially now there is no more Superior, Venom has long since been redeemed, Doppelganger is dead.

The fact they are using Peter's clone to act as the mirror adds more guilt and responsibility onto Peter.

It all hinges on how Dark Web ends... If there is a moment whereby you see a glimmer of hope that Ben might turn back to the side of the angels, he likely will in future. But if he doesn't? Then we know he will remain a villain for the foreseeable future.

[Toxin45]

You can see the obvious back door built in place to reverse and redeem Ben down the line. But I feel that Marvel really likes the idea of a twisted, villainous version of Spider-man in play. Especially now there is no more Superior, Venom has long since been redeemed, Doppelganger is dead.

The fact they are using Peter's clone to act as the mirror adds more guilt and responsibility onto Peter.

It all hinges on how Dark Web ends... If there is a moment whereby you see a glimmer of hope that Ben might turn back to the side of the angels, he likely will in future. But if he doesn't? Then we know he will remain a villain for the foreseeable future.

What about spidercide and itisy bites?

[Somecrazyaussie]

What about spidercide and itisy bites?

They could use them, sure. But I assume using Ben is a better angle storywise for them.

[NC_Yankee]

Disagree about Scorpion being in the same tier as Kangaroo. Scorpion messed Peter up bad in the Marvel Knights series. To me, he’s more like a tier 2. Harry should probably be tier 1 after Child Within and SPEC 200, and I’d put Morbius at about tier 3.

As for the main point about Ben, we’ll see. The problem is, from Marvel’s perspective (one I definitely don’t agree with), there’s no room for a second white Spidey in 2022 when you have Miles Morales as an alternate. Lowe basically said as much in the letters page of the last Beyond chapter. But if fandom keeps demanding he be restored maybe they’ll cave. And it’s a known fact there’s a whole bunch of people who liked the clone saga as kids now working as full-time writers and artists at Marvel (Steve Orlando just randomly brought back Judas freakin’ Traveller into the X-books).

That is a fair point about Scorpion, he is better then Kangaroo and Francine ( stick the Stacy Twins on Tier 4 to replace him). I do not put Harry on the same level as Norman and Otto. Why? If for no other reason the deaths of the Stacy’s. ps. Rating Peter villain and putting them on certain tiers would be an interesting question. Others on Tier 2. Chameleon ( although I despise the character), Lizard and Morlun ( although again like Chameleon I do not like ( those two and Jackal are my least favorite baddies with multiple appearances). All others belong on Tier 3 or Tier 4. As for Ben, if they want to use him as a villain then pick a hero other then Peter. Why? Most heroes are lacking in quality villains. Miles and Ghost Spider immediately comes to mind. Peter does not have that issue.

[Sr. Bungle]

That is a fair point about Scorpion, he is better then Kangaroo and Francine ( stick the Stacy Twins on Tier 4 to replace him). I do not put Harry on the same level as Norman and Otto. Why? If for no other reason the deaths of the Stacy’s. ps. Rating Peter villain and putting them on certain tiers would be an interesting question. Others on Tier 2. Chameleon ( although I despise the character), Lizard and Morlun ( although again like Chameleon I do not like ( those two and Jackal are my least favorite baddies with multiple appearances). All others belong on Tier 3 or Tier 4. As for Ben, if they want to use him as a villain then pick a hero other then Peter. Why? Most heroes are lacking in quality villains. Miles and Ghost Spider immediately comes to mind. Peter does not have that issue.

Ben as villain is tailor-made for Peter.

[Huntsman Spider]

What about spidercide and itisy bites?

Itsy Bitsy is currently living up to her name, as a literal itsy-bitsy spider that she regenerated into after seemingly being killed by Deadpool at the end of Joe Kelly's Spider-Man/Deadpool. She could still come back, though.

Ben as villain is tailor-made for Peter.

As much as I hate Marvel's logic in making Ben the villain here, it does make a certain twisted sense. A lot of the earlier comics teased the possibility of Peter himself breaking bad due to the challenges, hardships, and even losses that he'd endured before and especially after becoming Spider-Man. Obviously, that'd never happen, particularly now with Spider-Man as more of a brand and a mascot for Marvel than an actual character, but Ben is effectively a version of Peter Parker who had his own, even greater challenges due to not even being certain of his own identity or worth as a person on account of being a "mere clone." Of course, we could bring up Kaine and Spidercide, who were explicitly cloned variants of Peter/Spider-Man that did break bad, either out of a need to survive or out of despair over their sense of self being invalidated by their status as clones, though as Kaine has long since reformed and the recent Ben Reilly: Spider-Man miniseries hinted that Spidercide could do the same if he ever came out of his coma at the end of that story, Marvel doesn't have that many ideas for a twisted version of Spider-Man that would plausibly resonate with readers and fans.

[JustLuke]

I don't think there's anything they've done to Ben that can't be easily fixed. Heroes turning into villains in ridiculous stories is nothing new and way more broken characters have bounced back. Ben had his mind damaged by external forces. If he can have his mind restored, he's back to normal. It's not that complex. And I think that, as the Spider-Verse sequel nears, they'll probably turn him back to Scarlet Spider, especially since this has been so poorly received.

I really hope they do Ben justice in that even if his screentime is limited. This is going to be the first time casuals get introduced to the character, I hope he ends up being loved and gets as much new fans as possible. Maybe as you said, it'll make them revert him back to the Scarlet Spider identity again.

[boots]

As much as I hate Marvel's logic in making Ben the villain here, it does make a certain twisted sense. A lot of the earlier comics teased the possibility of Peter himself breaking bad due to the challenges, hardships, and even losses that he'd endured before and especially after becoming Spider-Man. Obviously, that'd never happen, particularly now with Spider-Man as more of a brand and a mascot for Marvel than an actual character, but Ben is effectively a version of Peter Parker who had his own, even greater challenges due to not even being certain of his own identity or worth as a person on account of being a "mere clone." Of course, we could bring up Kaine and Spidercide, who were explicitly cloned variants of Peter/Spider-Man that did break bad, either out of a need to survive or out of despair over their sense of self being invalidated by their status as clones, though as Kaine has long since reformed and the recent Ben Reilly: Spider-Man miniseries hinted that Spidercide could do the same if he ever came out of his coma at the end of that story, Marvel doesn't have that many ideas for a twisted version of Spider-Man that would plausibly resonate with readers and fans.

it's funny that all three clones of peter end up breaking bad.

wonder what that says

[Huntsman Spider]

it's funny that all three clones of peter end up breaking bad.

wonder what that says

I think it says that given the right (or wrong) circumstances, Peter himself would make one hell of a supervillain.

[boots]

I think it says that given the right (or wrong) circumstances, Peter himself would make one hell of a supervillain.

there but for the grace of plot armour go i

[All Star Superman]

it's funny that all three clones of peter end up breaking bad.

wonder what that says

I actually think a villainous clone of Peter is a great idea. That said, that clone should not be the Ben we know and love. Now, let's say that the clone from the original clone saga had returned and only pretended to be a good guy named Ben Reilly. The Clone Saga happens, especially Peter's true identity being called into question, but we later find the mastermind isn't an Osborn, it's Peter's clone. Their titanic "final" battle happens in "Revelations" and Ben disappears, only to return again and again to torment Peter. It could have worked that way back in the 90s, but now, Ben is a good guy. He's different enough from Peter to have his own distinct book and identity. In some ways, Ben proved that an alternate version of Peter Parker and/or a character with spider powers could be successful long before Miles, Gwen, and the rest of the "spin-offs" that have popped up over the years.

[Xwho]

Did Ben have a chance of working out as the original if he also became Peter Parker ?
Would it have stuck even if the Spider man movies were made ?

[Huntsman Spider]

there but for the grace of plot armour go i

Indeed.

I actually think a villainous clone of Peter is a great idea. That said, that clone should not be the Ben we know and love. Now, let's say that the clone from the original clone saga had returned and only pretended to be a good guy named Ben Reilly. The Clone Saga happens, especially Peter's true identity being called into question, but we later find the mastermind isn't an Osborn, it's Peter's clone. Their titanic "final" battle happens in "Revelations" and Ben disappears, only to return again and again to torment Peter. It could have worked that way back in the 90s, but now, Ben is a good guy. He's different enough from Peter to have his own distinct book and identity. In some ways, Ben proved that an alternate version of Peter Parker and/or a character with spider powers could be successful long before Miles, Gwen, and the rest of the "spin-offs" that have popped up over the years.

Maybe, but I did like how Ben Reilly's arc in the 90s Clone Saga subverted the "evil clone" trope, with Ben just returning to "his home" in the hopes of saying his goodbyes to a dying Aunt May, only to get roped into Peter's messy psychodrama at that time, which made him reckon with how much their respective experiences over the five years since their initial encounter had reshaped them --- Ben for the better, Peter seemingly for the worse.

[HypnoHustler]

Indeed.



Maybe, but I did like how Ben Reilly's arc in the 90s Clone Saga subverted the "evil clone" trope, with Ben just returning to "his home" in the hopes of saying his goodbyes to a dying Aunt May, only to get roped into Peter's messy psychodrama at that time, which made him reckon with how much their respective experiences over the five years since their initial encounter had reshaped them --- Ben for the better, Peter seemingly for the worse.

This. It was refreshing that despite the Jackal’s foul intentions behind his creation, Ben Reilly was a good person and not some cliched “evil clone.” Every day I think it was more and more of a mistake to bring him back… and I say that as a hardcore fan who almost prefers Ben to Peter. Why bring him back just to play to the most tired and worst trope possible? And do it twice with Jackal and Chasm (three times if one counts the end of PAD’s awful SS run)?

[All Star Superman]

Indeed.



Maybe, but I did like how Ben Reilly's arc in the 90s Clone Saga subverted the "evil clone" trope, with Ben just returning to "his home" in the hopes of saying his goodbyes to a dying Aunt May, only to get roped into Peter's messy psychodrama at that time, which made him reckon with how much their respective experiences over the five years since their initial encounter had reshaped them --- Ben for the better, Peter seemingly for the worse.

I agree completely. I think that's one of the reasons Ben was so beloved then and is still beloved today. He was what Peter had once been (NOT because of MJ) and his life wide open for new stories. An evil clone would have been interesting because an evil Peter Parker would have made a formidable threat. The same would not be true of someone without Peter's genius and ingenuity.