Amazing Spider-man 9 Preview

[TinkerSpider]

It would be lovely if people would quit conflating sexism with poor character writing. If that were the case, MacTaggert losing to Watson because she was taught by a man and is the love interest of the male protagonist would be sexist. The narrative offered a plot contrivance for Mary Jane's behaviour. Seditives have been administered to make Watson compliant.

The choice is understandably unpopular, but fan objection doesn't make the writing problematic.

It would be lovely if people recognized turning a female character who has had agency since her first appearance into a mindless meat puppet who is unable to fight off "a very mild sedative" - as MJ has to be convincing enough to pass as herself at the gala - and turning her into just an object to be rescued and just to make the hero sad/angry/possibly be his reward is playing into the highly sexist, highly problematic damsel in distress stereotype that mainstream media SHOULD be lightyears beyond. And to not see the sexism in this is problematic IMO.

And it would be lovely if others didn't use ad reductio absurdum fallacies and engaged in what people are actually expressing.

It's not that MJ is supposed to fight off Moira. It's not MJ can't be under Moira's control. Bad things happen to characters.

It's HOW MJ is portrayed in these situations. It's refusing to give MJ any agency and making her just a cardboard plot device so Spider-Man can team up with Wolverine. It's giving MJ a meek, submissive voice instead of her own, well established voice. We're not seeing MJ doing anything to self-rescue herself aside from using morse code to alert Doug Ramsey in Hellfire Gala, which is the absolute barest minimum and was forced by the story so the story can move to the next beat instead of being driven by character (if it was driven by character, MJ would have given Peter some sort of signal - used some phrase or done something that she knew would have alerted Peter but not Moira. It makes no sense for MJ to look to mutants she barely knows - and who could be in cahoots with Moira in the first place - for help when her longtime friend/often partner is RIGHT THERE).

MJ should be trying to figure out how to get out of this situation at every step of the way. Not just dragging her feet and then going along after a half-hearted protest. That's flat hackneyed writing. Of course, it's not helped by Zeb Wells's intransigent refusal to give Peter or Mary Jane an interior life so we don't know what they are thinking - because if he did, it would ruin his moldy Mystery Box.

Characters have, well, characterization. How Mary Jane responds to a situation should be different from Felicia Hardy should be different from Lois Lane should be different from Linda Park West.

But in Hellfire Gala and in the pages we have so far, Mary Jane acts just like a generic stereotyped helpless female victim. Her dialogue and actions could be given to any number of faceless damsels in distress. THAT's the issue.

In addition, Zeb Wells has a explicit, long established history of problematic writing for Mary Jane that cannot be denied.

[Kevinroc]

Apparently Moira is more dangerous than the very definitely A-list supervillain The Green Goblin so it totally makes sense that a character known for standing up to bullies just absolutely kowtows to her with barely a whimper.

Edit: Again, this issue, and this storyline as a whole, reduces Mary Jane to a damsel in distress. And not just a damsel in distress. But a weak-willed damsel in distress. Which should be criticized coming out of Marvel in 2022.

[Kevinroc]

Remember, MJ is the woman who attacked Morlun to try to protect Peter when he was hurt.





MJ doesn't need to "win" to look strong willed, but we need to see the effort put in. If Wells and co. can't write this story in such a way that doesn't make MJ look like a weak-willed damsel in distress, maybe they shouldn't have done this story at all.

[Tabs]

It would be lovely if people recognized turning a female character who has had agency since her first appearance into a mindless meat puppet who is unable to fight off "a very mild sedative" - as MJ has to be convincing enough to pass as herself at the gala - and turning her into just an object to be rescued and just to make the hero sad/angry/possibly be his reward is playing into the highly sexist, highly problematic damsel in distress stereotype that mainstream media SHOULD be lightyears beyond. And to not see the sexism in this is problematic IMO.

And it would be lovely if others didn't use ad reductio absurdum fallacies and engaged in what people are actually expressing.

It's not that MJ is supposed to fight off Moira. It's not MJ can't be under Moira's control. Bad things happen to characters.

It's HOW MJ is portrayed in these situations. It's refusing to give MJ any agency and making her just a cardboard plot device so Spider-Man can team up with Wolverine. It's giving MJ a meek, submissive voice instead of her own, well established voice. We're not seeing MJ doing anything to self-rescue herself aside from using morse code to alert Doug Ramsey in Hellfire Gala, which is the absolute barest minimum and was forced by the story so the story can move to the next beat instead of being driven by character (if it was driven by character, MJ would have given Peter some sort of signal - used some phrase or done something that she knew would have alerted Peter but not Moira. It makes no sense for MJ to look to mutants she barely knows - and who could be in cahoots with Moira in the first place - for help when her longtime friend/often partner is RIGHT THERE).

MJ should be trying to figure out how to get out of this situation at every step of the way. Not just dragging her feet and then going along after a half-hearted protest. That's flat hackneyed writing. Of course, it's not helped by Zeb Wells's intransigent refusal to give Peter or Mary Jane an interior life so we don't know what they are thinking - because if he did, it would ruin his moldy Mystery Box.

Characters have, well, characterization. How Mary Jane responds to a situation should be different from Felicia Hardy should be different from Lois Lane should be different from Linda Park West.

But in Hellfire Gala and in the pages we have so far, Mary Jane acts just like a generic stereotyped helpless female victim. Her dialogue and actions could be given to any number of faceless damsels in distress. THAT's the issue.

In addition, Zeb Wells has a explicit, long established history of problematic writing for Mary Jane that cannot be denied.

The analogy is valid when some readers have behaved as if Watson ought to have vanquished MacTaggert herself. I read your comment, but with all (genuinely) due respect, you could just state that you disagree with the way Wells employs poorly executed plot devices to convey his stories or the voices he spins for these characters and save the word count and moral outrage. Poor character writing doesn't automatically turn sexist because the target is a woman. Anger is entirely reasonable when a writer bungles an amazing character.

[Starrius]

Remember, MJ is the woman who attacked Morlun to try to protect Peter when he was hurt.





MJ doesn't need to "win" to look strong willed, but we need to see the effort put in. If Wells and co. can't write this story in such a way that doesn't make MJ look like a weak-willed damsel in distress, maybe they shouldn't have done this story at all.

That's a wife defending her husband which I totally miss in the Spider-Man comics!

Right before they got engaged, Mary Jane defended Peter by hitting the Spider-Slayer with a boy's baseball bat.
As result, the Spider-Slayer stopped punching Peter and dropped him and picked up Mary Jane to kill her
Of course, Peter saved Mary Jane
He tore that Spider-Slayer apart and threatened to do the same thing to the guy in it

[Lukmendes]

She is sentinel cyborg now. Far above Chameleon or Green Goblin in terms for power level

Chameleon, probably, Green Goblin, absolutely not lol.

You all know MJ's defeated dangerous supervillains, right? (All pages from Leah Williams' Amazing Mary Jane series.)

https://64.media.tumblr.com/1e072424...d524142b92.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/ca831843...185b6f07a0.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/3239ece4...be399f04bb.jpg

I say again, this issue of ASM's set-up is lame. MJ's characterization is lame. And "Zeb Wells also writes Peter Parker badly" is not the defense you think it is.

Honestly this is the opposite problem, MJ being too passive and useless is bad, but her taking down villains like this cheapens them, overwanks her and makes Spidey himself look way less impressive when he takes 'em down lol.

It would be lovely if people would quit conflating sexism with poor character writing. If that were the case, MacTaggert losing to Watson because she was taught by a man and is the love interest of the male protagonist would be sexist. The narrative offered a plot contrivance for Mary Jane's behaviour. Seditives have been administered to make Watson compliant.

The choice is understandably unpopular, but fan objection doesn't make the writing problematic.

I mean, she acts ridiculously passive and scared here, which really doesn't work when just a few months before this, Queen Goblin attacked her, and MJ punched her in the face in ASM#89 vol 5 lol.

Obviously that moment wasn't written by Wells too.

Anyways, I came here to ask, what do you guys think are the chances of Wells making Moira eat, or try to eat, MJ? .

[Kevinroc]

Honestly this is the opposite problem, MJ being too passive and useless is bad, but her taking down villains like this cheapens them, overwanks her and makes Spidey himself look way less impressive when he takes 'em down lol.

There's one simple explanation for what happened. She had protagonist powers obviously, lol.

I mean, she acts ridiculously passive and scared here, which really doesn't work when just a few months before this, Queen Goblin attacked her, and MJ punched her in the face in ASM#89 vol 5 lol.

Obviously that moment wasn't written by Wells too.

Anyways, I came here to ask, what do you guys think are the chances of Wells making Moira eat, or try to eat, MJ? .

MJ isn't her kid, lol.

[TinkerSpider]

The analogy is valid when some readers have behaved as if Watson ought to have vanquished MacTaggert herself. I read your comment, but with all (genuinely) due respect, you could just state that you disagree with the way Wells employs poorly executed plot devices to convey his stories or the voices he spins for these characters and save the word count and moral outrage. Poor character writing doesn't automatically turn sexist because the target is a woman. Anger is entirely reasonable when a writer bungles an amazing character.

When a female character is reduced to being nothing but a meek, submissive, helpless, absent of agency object that has no purpose except to motivate the hero and be rescued:

That is sexist. It's sexist because it's reinforcing a sexist cliched stereotype that has been used against people who identify as women for centuries.

It would be sexist if it were Felicia Hardy. It would be sexist if it were Lois Lane. It was sexist when used for Gwen Stacy.

Not wanting to use the word does not negate that.

And to be fair:

Maybe Wells will flip the stereotype and maybe he will empower MJ by the time this is done. (By empower I mean give her agency, not literally give her powers)

I'm not holding my breath.

[Lukmendes]

There's one simple explanation for what happened. She had protagonist powers obviously, lol.

Yeah I don't really care about the reason why it happened, I find it goofy it happened to begin with lol.

Between this and her being boring, passive and useless, I think this is the less bad option, but I still would prefer for neither to happen lol.

MJ isn't her kid, lol.

Hey man, I don't think being actually related is such a requirement for Wells' cannibalism .

Then again, given some random stories I've seen Wells wrote, he seems to prefer these kinds of things to happen with kids, and while MJ's age is vague sometimes, she's definitely over 20, so yeah, maybe this will keep her safe from being eaten.

I still think the possibility should be kept in mind anyways, who knows, Moira is a cartoonish villain now, maybe she'll prove she's more evil than Green Goblin by eating MJ .

[wleakr]

Legend has it, Mary Jane once got bitten by a rattlesnake.

After three days of suffering….the rattlesnake died!

[TinkerSpider]

Legend has it, Mary Jane once got bitten by a rattlesnake.

After three days of suffering….the rattlesnake died!

Nice use of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy!

[Huntsman Spider]

Legend has it, Mary Jane once got bitten by a rattlesnake.

After three days of suffering….the rattlesnake died!

I would sooner take Chuck Norris memes, but repurposed for Mary Jane Watson(-Parker), over the general travesty that has been the more recent Spider-Man comics.

[Lee]

You all know MJ's defeated dangerous supervillains, right? (All pages from Leah Williams' Amazing Mary Jane series.)

This comic is an epic win. The best part was when Mary Jane roundhouse kicked Galactus and he begged for mercy, then she shot him with her gun.

^^^ Maybe it's expected for her Captain America training to kick in therby providing the intestinal fortitude to fight off the sedatives, counteract all forms of mind control, escape her restraints, apprehend the villain and escort them to a superhuman holding facility? And still make her next acting audition on time.

This is the way!

It's like Scott McCloud said in Understanding Comics, the best story structure is:

Page 1, Panel 1: Introduce conflict

Page 1, Panel 2: Mary Jane resolves conflict

[TinkerSpider]

This comic is an epic win. The best part was when Mary Jane roundhouse kicked Galactus and he begged for mercy, then she shot him with her gun.



This is the way!

It's like Scott McCloud said in Understanding Comics, the best story structure is:

Page 1, Panel 1: Introduce conflict

Page 1, Panel 2: Mary Jane resolves conflict

Nice, but as a use of reductio ad absurdum I prefer wleakr’s example. There needs to be story structure and conflict in Spider-Man comics for your example to work, which means 98% of Dan Slott’s output is automatically disqualified.

[Kevinroc]

This comic is an epic win. The best part was when Mary Jane roundhouse kicked Galactus and he begged for mercy, then she shot him with her gun.



This is the way!

It's like Scott McCloud said in Understanding Comics, the best story structure is:

Page 1, Panel 1: Introduce conflict

Page 1, Panel 2: Mary Jane resolves conflict

Apparently a regular human triumphing over seemingly impossible odds is unsatisfying to you.

Have you considered that comic books might not be for you?