Compared To Batman And Superman, Does Wonder Woman Need More Cool, Iconic Stuff?

[Stanlos]

WThe test, as I see it - what cool stuff can you imagine inspiring TOYS and playsets? Basically, WW's got the Invisible Jet, the Lasso and bracelets and Paradise Island...that's it! No robot tank for Steve. No UFO for Andros. No Mars's Martian Fortress. No Nubia's Floating Isle of Doom!

She's got nuthin'!

I don't know. While she and the other two iconic one person Justice Leagues all were conceived with Gods of myth in mind only Marston directly and intimately ,ade those myths an intrinsic part of the origin and world of the character. As such I think she inherits a host of iconic fare from the mythology alone.

Also there are iconic Superman things like standing while bullets bounce off. Both have iconic single plait images of them breaking chains and being hit over the head with a bat and not flinching. WW has one sent up during the MessnerLoebs/Moder run where several buff dudes try to move her and she merely smiles. Adding to that her covers have dozens of iconography. I think there is more there than Bullets and Bracelets, her tiara, the lasso, the spin, and the classic hands on hips or Amazon salute poses that is not being acknowledged.

And the last regime of TPTB at DC didn't help by dumping her dynamic original gear for basic generic nondescript gladiator fare.

[Alpha]

Wonder Woman's connection to Greek Mythology has hurt her far more than helped.

It's the reason why Hercules is considered a hero elsewhere. Many people say they love Wonder Woman because they like Greek Mythology, but they know nothing of her actual stories.

It's why every fan pitch for a DCEU has Diana fight gods, not her unique villains. It blocks her world from growing.

[HestiasHearth]

Wonder Woman's connection to Greek Mythology has hurt her far more than helped.

It's the reason why Hercules is considered a hero elsewhere. Many people say they love Wonder Woman because they like Greek Mythology, but they know nothing of her actual stories.

It's why every fan pitch for a DCEU has Diana fight gods, not her unique villains. It blocks her world from growing.

I see what you mean, although I certainly love the pseudo-Greek myth aspects of her backstory.
I don't want her book or her potential continued movie presence to completely move away from including Greek-myth inspired stories or villains, but I absolutely crave for the powers that be at DC and Warner Bros. Discovery to embrace the uniqueness of her Golden Age origins/world, and to cast a wider net when it comes to showcasing WW tales that use other storytelling elements beyond gods and monsters. I'd love to see science fiction, espionage, whimsical fantasy, camp, and all kinds of combos of that, right along the sorta-Greek mythology-inspired intrigue/action that most writers seem to think WW is only about.

[WonderScott]

I think the gods have a place in Wonder stories, but they’ve also got to relate to her superhero aspects as well.

What do the Olympians think of Darkseid, Grail and a certain avatar of Urzkartaga always messing with Diana? Does Aphrodite consider Steve worthy of Diana’s love? Does Hephaestus think that Doctor Cyber is any kind of skilled inventor?

Circe is the god that has probably messed with Diana’s foes the most recently and even that’s not too much of a thing.

I’d also return Harold Campion and Heracles back into the fold as ongoing characters. Plenty to play with there with him and Diana’s other earthly foes, whether as a villain, anti-hero or reformed hero.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think God's have hurt WW. They are a major part of her mythos and aren't even used to their full extent nowadays. Its like Buffy and vampires. She still had 5 seasons of non vampire big bads while the vampires were in the background. Same thing can be for WW

[Mel Dyer]

She totally does.

Her biggest problem has always been each team comes in and changes what the previous team did so we have no consistency.

Themiscrya needs to look a bit lavish and mystical.

She needs her own "batcave" or "FoS"

She needs more "cool" high-profile storylines. The necksnap is probably her biggest story nowadays and the fallout could've been great had DC not interfered.

She needs an actual relationship with her Wonder fam. And probably one of them need an iconic death tbh.

Start giving her villains more personality. Strife is a great villain with a fun personality that doesn't get enough play.

But all that said, a tv/animated show helps cement some of these iconic aspects.

There were times in the Golden and Bronze Ages, when Paradise Island WAS her Batcave. The problem with featuring the Island in a story, today, is that writers can't seem to do it, without the Island swallowing the whole damn story. Seriously, ..it's a narrative implosion of the sort, that's made AQUAMAN unreadable to me - one swallowing 2 or 3 issues - that we suffer, every time we see Themyscira.

Can you imagine, if a BATCAVE story gobbled up three issues, every time a writer showed Bruce working on something in his cave lair? Ridiculous.

I don't need a story, every time Diana visits the Island. I wish some editor would impress this, upon writers.

And I think Strife's a GREAT villain. I'd even like to see her interacting with the villains in the court of Mars: Destruction, Deception, Greed, Conquest ..and Silver Swan! The problem with Strife is the same problem ALL of the Wonder-rogues present - it's not clear what she wants or how a writer can get a story out of it. That old devil...motivation!

I'd love to see Strife and Janus tagteam the Wonderverse, but can't imagine what Strife would do, on her own, in a similar story. What would a Strife vs the JLA story, even be about? What would the JLA or Titans be trying to stop Strife, from accomplishing? Can't even speculate on that...

WHy are you equating "uberpowerful character" with "punch[ing] their way out of every problem"? Those two things are not inherently linked. In fact, I actually love the essence of Wonder Woman PRECISELY because she is an uberpowerful character who would rather reform her villains/talk some sense into them/appeal to the humanity in them rather than punch them into submission. THAT is Wonder WOman. Wonder Woman is not a mid-tier brawler with ties to the Olympian deities. She is indeed an uber-powerful character AND she is also a character who is supremely skilled at de-escalating a situation and choosing the path of least resistance.

THAT is why she deserves an Invisible Yacht, a friend who is also a KAIJU, a vault [?] of Nike, a Townhouse Armory ..or Arsenal Dreamhouse ..and her own cool Wonder Woman Family! Woo'wu!

Is the WW Family one of the cool things, she's missing, now?

[Stanlos]

Wonder Woman's connection to Greek Mythology has hurt her far more than helped.

It's the reason why Hercules is considered a hero elsewhere. Many people say they love Wonder Woman because they like Greek Mythology, but they know nothing of her actual stories.

It's why every fan pitch for a DCEU has Diana fight gods, not her unique villains. It blocks her world from growing.

I can't see where her ties to mythology have hurt her at all. If anything it has made her further unique and served as a point of entry. And when handled well a la Rucka, Simonson, Jimenez, Luke, Perez, and to an extent Byrne, it can add an air of awe and majesty. And in Rucka's case it can also evolve the mythology

[Stanlos]

There were times in the Golden and Bronze Ages, when Paradise Island WAS her Batcave.

****Snippety Doo Daaaa Whatta Wunnerful Dayeeeeeeeee*****

Is the WW Family one of the cool things, she's missing, now?

I definitely see your point about the Paradise Island visits taking up a lot of story real estate at times. However when balanced is use it serves as a Wonderful (ba-bum bum! Booosh!) support mechanism and an epic storytelling tool as seen in Super-Friends and paid homage to during Jimenez run.

Part of the magic and allure of WW is her versatility--you can literally tell a story in just about any genre with her. She's MUCH more than a superhero and when done well I think the scribe mixes it up. So not just mythology all day, not just political messaging all day, not just butt kickery all day, and not (insert type here) all day.

I also agree that the Wonderfamily is needed. Unfortunately when FlashNoPoint FiftyQuintillionTonsOfPooh hit they really daemonized her, her fam, and much of her trappings so we could time travel to the 60s and she could swept away by SooopahMayanz. I don't know that we will get back to the days of heavy use of her extended family but kudos to the Cloon & The Rad for making an effort though practically hamstrung by the abysmal state of DC at the moment. I appreciate the effort and the well intended additions to the Wonder-verse

[bardkeep]

Wonder Woman's connection to Greek Mythology has hurt her far more than helped.

It's the reason why Hercules is considered a hero elsewhere. Many people say they love Wonder Woman because they like Greek Mythology, but they know nothing of her actual stories.

It's why every fan pitch for a DCEU has Diana fight gods, not her unique villains. It blocks her world from growing.

I get why people feel this way, but a huge reason why Perez's reboot even happened (and the mod era, for that matter) was because the wacky stuff stopped being unique. Stories about Martian armies, sci-fi-shenanigans, and intergalactic slavers were exciting and unusual in the GA, but with the Fawcett-ification of Superman, general shift toward more space-focused heroes, and integration into a shared universe (which is really limiting - e.g. you can't do anything with Martians or Atlanteans that contradicts Martian Manhunter or Aquaman lore), those sorts of stories started feeling derivative.

When it comes down to it, WW is interesting because of her politics, not her genre. Marston's WW was great because of his supporting cast and ideology (neither of which would fly under anyone else's pen, even today); when reduced to its genre trappings, we got Kanigher. Perez's WW was great because he subverted Greek myths to suit a powerful feminist epic; when reduced to just Greek mythology, we got Azzarello.

I will say this for Greek myth, though - in addition to it being unique in-universe, it welcomes the sort of high-concept narrative thinking Marston was doing. Her most interesting bad guys have always represented ideas (Mars, the Duke of Deception, the Earl of Greed, Lord Conquest...) and the scale of those conflicts is easily represented by the gods. It's also really moving to read something that draws from an ancient, deeply patriarchal form of storytelling and turns it into a story for women, which is why Historia is so ridiculously amazing. When the myths are played straight it ends in disaster, but when they're subverted you get incredible, unique stuff.

[Mel Dyer]

In a nutshell, I just don't think there’s much familiar to look forward to, when I pick up a WW comic.

The I-Jet is a GREAT thingamabob, for Diana's adventures. It really is, ..but, if you don't see it being used to rescue people from a crashing 747 or ocean liner..or smashing through an army of robots, like invisible battering ram, ..why should we think it's half as badass, as we fans know it is? Y'know?There's a TON of cool uses we can imagine Superman or Green Lantern finding for the Jet, in rescue, combat or recon - they just don't show up in th we WW comic.

Sometimes, an editor has to get after writers to do more with the Wonderverse, if any of this already cool stuff is going to be in nicersally appreciated.

I think she needs another cool locale or setting, besides Paradise Island - an iconic ARGUS HQ, a weird DC monument, a residence doubling as a lair or armory, something on the skyline of her base city--y'know? Something like any of that.

Any of the villains- Myrina Black, Janus, Circe, Cheetah, Mars, etc - any (not all) of them should have some kind of iconic lair or residence, we fans can't wait to see showing up in a story!

Could she get another vehicle? Phil Jimenez gave her an invisible motorcycle- MARVELOUS idea! Sure, Diana's a flyer...doesn't need it--Etta, Col. Steve, Nubia or Siggy might rock it, though! WW needs something cool, we look for, when th we odds are against her...in a high stakes moment.

I know some of us think WW is above that sort of juvenile stuff, ..but, most of us out here aren't. We need some cool WW junk, jefe.

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman's connection to Greek Mythology has hurt her far more than helped.

It's the reason why Hercules is considered a hero elsewhere. Many people say they love Wonder Woman because they like Greek Mythology, but they know nothing of her actual stories.

It's why every fan pitch for a DCEU has Diana fight gods, not her unique villains. It blocks her world from growing.

People know nothing of Diana's actual stories due to poor marketing, a lack of adaptations and numerous other factors. The connection to Greek mythology is not the issue.

Also, the last time Hercules was a big deal at all was the Disney movie from the 90s.

[Agent Z]

There were times in the Golden and Bronze Ages, when Paradise Island WAS her Batcave. The problem with featuring the Island in a story, today, is that writers can't seem to do it, without the Island swallowing the whole damn story. Seriously, ..it's a narrative implosion of the sort, that's made AQUAMAN unreadable to me - one swallowing 2 or 3 issues - that we suffer, every time we see Themyscira.

Can you imagine, if a BATCAVE story gobbled up three issues, every time a writer showed Bruce working on something in his cave lair? Ridiculous.

I don't need a story, every time Diana visits the Island. I wish some editor would impress this, upon writers.

And I think Strife's a GREAT villain. I'd even like to see her interacting with the villains in the court of Mars: Destruction, Deception, Greed, Conquest ..and Silver Swan! The problem with Strife is the same problem ALL of the Wonder-rogues present - it's not clear what she wants or how a writer can get a story out of it. That old devil...motivation!

I'd love to see Strife and Janus tagteam the Wonderverse, but can't imagine what Strife would do, on her own, in a similar story. What would a Strife vs the JLA story, even be about? What would the JLA or Titans be trying to stop Strife, from accomplishing? Can't even speculate on that...



THAT is why she deserves an Invisible Yacht, a friend who is also a KAIJU, a vault [?] of Nike, a Townhouse Armory ..or Arsenal Dreamhouse ..and her own cool Wonder Woman Family! Woo'wu!

Is the WW Family one of the cool things, she's missing, now?

The Batcave is a false equivalency. The Batcave is not a country.

[Alpha]

People know nothing of Diana's actual stories due to poor marketing, a lack of adaptations and numerous other factors. The connection to Greek mythology is not the issue.

Also, the last time Hercules was a big deal at all was the Disney movie from the 90s.

When people don't know much about Green Lantern, they don't pretend to know. There's Oa, The Battery, the Guardians, Paralax, Sinestro, Mogo, etc. Either you know this or you don't. And people don't complain about Green Lantern not being mythologically accurate, since this isn't reutilizing a whole other universe of stories.

But when people don't know much about Wonder Woman, they still think they do since it seems to them as though she is just Greek Mythology, and they complain about all the ways she is different from all the other Greek Myth stories they see everywhere

[Perseus]

When people don't know much about Green Lantern, they don't pretend to know. There's Oa, The Battery, the Guardians, Paralax, Sinestro, Mogo, etc. Either you know this or you don't. And people don't complain about Green Lantern not being mythologically accurate, since this isn't reutilizing a whole other universe of stories.

But when people don't know much about Wonder Woman, they still think they do since it seems to them as though she is just Greek Mythology, and they complain about all the ways she is different from all the other Greek Myth stories they see everywhere

This is true at times but Perez, Rucka's first run, and even Jimmenez were all fairly accurate to the myths regarding the stories. The only big thing is the origin of the Amazons and Heracles being treated as kind of a villain (as he should be) because of what he did in his myths. Rucka even managed to make Ares into someone more complex than just the embodiment of all things bad in war. the thing with Diana and Greek Myth is mainly looking at it with a complex and progressive lens, and you can't really do that we you decide to deviate too far from stories and try to whitewash them i.e. viewing them as metaphors for basic Christian good and evil (Zeus is God, Hades/Ares the Devil) or treating for example Zeus's rapes and assaults as a joke. That's what Azz did, he even just turned the amazons into the very propaganda the Greeks used against women. The Greeks didn't view the amazons with honor or anything, they were monsters and bad women to them. the amazons had political power, were independent, and sexually liberated what patriarchal society wouldn't hate them? So, the Greeks used them in stories to put women in 'their place' and turned them into backwards thinking, man hating, rapists, and child murders, and look what Azz did and you see he just fell for the propaganda. Dude didn't realize or didn't care that the amazon's of DC were already subversions of the original.

Regarding GL, he's had much more exposure in nerd fandom then Diana. It's still not a fair comparison. Greek myth is not Diana's problem, its consistent writing, world building, power levels, exposure, advertising, a lack of scale in storytelling, poor utilization in other media. B's got 99 problems but the myths aren't one of them.

[WonderScott]

I get why people feel this way, but a huge reason why Perez's reboot even happened (and the mod era, for that matter) was because the wacky stuff stopped being unique. Stories about Martian armies, sci-fi-shenanigans, and intergalactic slavers were exciting and unusual in the GA, but with the Fawcett-ification of Superman, general shift toward more space-focused heroes, and integration into a shared universe (which is really limiting - e.g. you can't do anything with Martians or Atlanteans that contradicts Martian Manhunter or Aquaman lore), those sorts of stories started feeling derivative.

When it comes down to it, WW is interesting because of her politics, not her genre. Marston's WW was great because of his supporting cast and ideology (neither of which would fly under anyone else's pen, even today); when reduced to its genre trappings, we got Kanigher. Perez's WW was great because he subverted Greek myths to suit a powerful feminist epic; when reduced to just Greek mythology, we got Azzarello.

I will say this for Greek myth, though - in addition to it being unique in-universe, it welcomes the sort of high-concept narrative thinking Marston was doing. Her most interesting bad guys have always represented ideas (Mars, the Duke of Deception, the Earl of Greed, Lord Conquest...) and the scale of those conflicts is easily represented by the gods. It's also really moving to read something that draws from an ancient, deeply patriarchal form of storytelling and turns it into a story for women, which is why Historia is so ridiculously amazing. When the myths are played straight it ends in disaster, but when they're subverted you get incredible, unique stuff.

All of this. A fantastic assessment.