Batman Vs. Robin #1 Discussion/Spoilers

[Rakzo]

Yes, you can easily get the premise from the title alone, is not a very interesting idea by itself but writer Mark Waid can usually get a compelling spin from such concepts and while he does at times here, he also falls into a few issues he had in the past.

Let's start with the return of an old and beloved character that pretty much everyone knew that he would come back eventually. I suppose that Waid being a popular writer was the right choice to bring him back to bring even more attention to the title but at the same time, Waid usually does solid character work that a situation like this would logically create and he definitely delivers interesting and appropriate interactions between the cast, at least from a very "classic" perspective.

My issue comes with how the whole "fight" between Bruce and Damian happens. Is pretty clear that Damian is being mind-controlled, manipulated, whatever to be so unhinged but on the other hand, Bruce suddenly calling his son "ruthless and impatient to replace him" seems VERY out of character considering all the development that happened during Joshua Williamson's tenure writing both. It seems like Waid is simply not following previous history in terms of characterization and just doing what his plot demands which is sadly a technique that he tends to overuse.

That being said, the issue has a lot of content, decent build-up, intriguing mysteries and makes good use of other ideas that Waid himself has been developing in other books.

Mahmud Asrar is someone I've been missing at DC and I'm glad to have him back due that his art is beautiful thanks to the amount of detail he brings to every scene and character.

Decent start, I just wish some things were better.

[Felipe Silveira]

It reminded Damian that everyone hates.

[Frontier]

So...Julia had a kid?

[Rakzo]

Wonder if this will turn out into another example of "Waid can't write kids"?

[OOPS]

I was hesitant, but thought I'd give it a try.

While I understand it was "well written", there were just too many holes for me, and I didn't believe Damian's characterization nor did the timeline work for me.

As I said in different thread, the voice for Damian just seems off to me, as does Bruce. I suppose it's because I'm not convinced of the possession. Damian has too much agency for possession, but but not enough to convince me this is how Damian would respond.

When did the magic users decide to Damian was responsible....and why didn't they give Bruce a call? When did the heroes disown Damian? Why are we back to Bruce verbally abusing Damian? Why are Bruce and Alfred so young?

I liked World's Finest because it was fun, as was Robin. This wasn't fun for me.

[Vordan]

It was fine, cool to see Tim Hunter and Jakeem again. What’s going to hurt this however is

1. We’ve seen Bruce and Damian feuding with each other ever since Glass Teen Titans, and this is covering a lot of the same ground in terms of Damian’s inferiority complex with regards to Bruce
2. Jobbing galore and “magic is dying!!!!!” storytelling with the DC Mystical characters is again something we’ve seen before repeatedly
3. Not really feeling the stakes since we know neither Bruce nor Damian are going to die, and Damian won’t turn evil, so I suspect that something will happen to magic yet again, which feeds into the Dark Crisis complaint of every DC event keeps rehashing the same story

Nice to have Asrar back at DC regardless.

[sifighter]

By the way who is Tim Hunter, I’ve seen him referenced in Justice League Dark back in the new 52 days but I don’t know who he is.

[Rakzo]

By the way who is Tim Hunter, I’ve seen him referenced in Justice League Dark back in the new 52 days but I don’t know who he is.

Timothy Hunter was a Vertigo character if I remember correctly (Basically Harry Potter before Harry Potter).

[garazza]

I saw some reactions to the issue before I got the chance to read it myself. Upon reading it, some things that were said were confirmed, and others weren't. I wrote this as I was reading so these are my reactions as the pages progressed.

I've seen a lot of people point out the "egocentric, ruthless, impatient to replace him" line to be a strike against Damian especially because it's coming from Bruce, and while I tend to agree with that assessment whenever someone not named Tomasi or Gleason tries to give their take on Bruce and Damian's relationship and all they end up doing is retreading old ground or making wildly inaccurate assumptions, I don't necessarily think this is the case.

Firstly, immediately following that line, Bruce says this isn't the Damian he knows and that there is clearly something nefarious behind his son's behavior. Bruce's...description of Damian is not entirely wrong per se, but it's very important to read these lines as Bruce internal monologue and not as metatext.

Secondly, I found Bruce's choice of words to be on the same level as describing Vegata from DBZ as "arrogant and driven by pride." Those words are true and apply to both Vegata when he was the Saiyan prince and still had a tail and when he was happily married and had children. While the circumstances Vegeta finds himself in are completely different from the time he's introduced to now, his core personality is still the same. He's still proud and full of himself, but there's so much more to him now that while "arrogant and driven by pride" are still true, they're missing out on a lot of nuance and development that recontextualizes those words, as is the case with Damian.

Damian does tend to be self-centered and probably suffers from Main Character Syndrome. Damian does tend to go over the top because he's not one to half-ass things. Damian"s "impatience to replace Bruce" is the one thing to stand out because it is kinda true in-universe, but it doesn't reflect the change in Damian's feelings about his place in the order of succession in the Batfamily where that is more true when talking about Damian closer to when Grant Morrison was writing him (at the start of his character journey) than now where he has learned the value of family and connections with others while still seeing himself as his father's son and all that goes with it.

On a side note, Waid has Damian say "tch" rather than his iconic "tt" so I guess that shows the depth of Waid's research into the character.

I think it's cool that Waid pulled a deep cut and used Tim Hunter from Books of Magic.

I don't know why Waid tried to use the same old tired BS about Bruce "drafting children into war" and had it come from Damian when that has never been something Damian has cared about or even brought up in the entirety of his publication history. What else you got Mark, should Damian steal Bruce's fortune next and use it to help people instead of punching mentally ill people? Come on man, I know you're better than that.

I don't really know how to feel about Damian's speech about Bruce hating him. It just seems off.

I do kinda like Damian's trash-talking because that's not how Damian would actually act but is the way his detractors see him as, so it's proof that Damian is not in charge of his faculties but I trust his haters to employ their lack of critical thinking skills and take Damian's unlikable personality to mean Damian is an unlikable character.

When Damian pulled out the strap, it made me wish that this was the only book that DC put forth in their mission of the past few years to manufacture conflict and division between father and son when fans have made it clear they want nothing of the sort. While conflict is required to tell certain stories, if this was the only conflict between Damian and Bruce, I would be OK with it because it would be a deviation from the norm, but this has been the norm for a while and all DC has done is put Damian into conflict after conflict after conflict.

I hate those pages of Zatanna laying the blame exclusively at Damian's feet. She should have reiterated that the dark forces she's talking about is using Damian. Instead, "Damian did a bad" and "Something's wrong with magic" are treated as two separate things that are not at all connected in any way so don't bother looking for a connection.

[sifighter]

I'm going to say that as someone who like Damian and characters like the JSA and Justice League Dark (which is especially rough to Zatanna) it was a bit of a head scratcher, however as a big DC universe story spinning out of Waid's Worlds Finest series I'm down for it. And I think its that kind of duality we need to be aware of when reading this.

Because do I like the version of Damian we get in this issue? No he's basically a psycho, but I know that there is a lot at play here with a mind controlling demon like Nezha and the fact that Damian's evil grandma is involved and that she has his heart in a jar. But what also gives me faith in this is that I know Waid is a good/great writer who has been good not in the past but in recent few months. I trust he's got a story to tell and that issue 1 was the hook to attract readers and later we will see what happened since the end of Damian's solo series by Williamson.

[Coco Loco]

So...Julia had a kid?

I had the same question. Alfred has a granddaughter?

[Dioman-san]

I don't know if someone have this theory. But maybe the Damian we saw is not the true Damian. In Robin #17 we saw Mother soul with the heart of Damian, maybe she use the Lazarus pit to ressurect a new bodie of Damian who became evil and they capture the normal Damian.

Well in all case, if you not read the serie Robin i think you can enjoy the first issue. But in the contrary (So my case) i don't enjoy the dialogue of Damian even though it was a Damian control by Nezha.

I prefer to wait Dark Crisis : Dark Army, to see How Waid write a normal Damian.

Positive note, the art is gorgeous.

[CPSparkles]

Glad I decided to not waste money on this. I love Damian and I'm not going to pay money to watch DC drag him yet again.

For those who'd argue that "You have to support characters you like"

I'll make up by buying two copies of the Supersons blu ray

[agentofthebat]

I wasnt going to get this but I think I am now. I kinda want to read it

[Triniking1234]

What suit is this on the far right?