Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2018

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

I disagree.

I know I'm repeating myself with this but I just don't see how Ben's return would have worked any other way. It's not like the character has much usable mythology, you can't just bring him back and have him working at the Daily Grind and fight crime in NYC like the old days. Even simply bringing him back as a hero in another city would not work, in 2018 a non Peter Parker Spider title needs to be distinct in order to survive. Simply being Spider-Man with a hoodie is not going to cut it.

On the other hand the hero long thought dead come back as a villain and then take them on a redemption arc from from anti-hero to hero again has reliably worked similar characters. The Clone Conspiracy may not have been the strongest of events but it left Reilly in a place that has a proven track record of working.

The problem was that PAD was uninterested in any redemption arc. That was clear from the eerie smile through the mask on all the promo images and the previews showing Ben charging people for being rescued it wasn't going to take Ben on a redemption journey.



Yost's Scarlet Spider series was not a big seller but it did better than PAD's but more importantly the people who read it liked it and left Kaine with enough interest to still have a presence in the Marvel Universe even after the book folded. He played a prominent role in both Spider-Verse and The Clone Conspiracy. If PAD's Scarlet Spider series had met with a similar reception it's likely Ben (and Kaine) wouldn't likely be on the chopping block for Spider-Geddon now.

The people who have been clamoring for Ben to return for 20 years didn't want him to become a super villain. We already have Kaine, Superior, and Venom if we want a murderous Spider-Man.

[Orbus]

The people who have been clamoring for Ben to return for 20 years didn't want him to become a super villain. We already have Kaine, Superior, and Venom if we want a murderous Spider-Man.

Didn't they?

I mean back in the day he was a popular fan theory of the identity of the stand-in Green Goblin Norman was using during Spider Hunt and Goblins at the Gate story line and there's tons of fan fiction over the years were Ben returns as a villain either brainwashed or traumatized.

I don't think many fans preferred route for the characters comeback but I think most see that this is the most reliable route to bring characters of Ben's type back and no one wants them to stay as villains. Cliched as it may be the redemption arc is another proven formula and one that I personally feel would have worked if done right.

Also if there's any sliver of good in Ben's comeback it's that he isn't murderous. Ben's whole deal as the Jackal was that he wanted to keep people from dying whatever the costs. In incredibly warped ways, true but his motivation was a sympathetic one. As off as his characterization has been in most of the Scarlet Spider series he wasn't murderous until the last issue where his soul is corrupted but frankly he hasn't successfully murdered anyone...yet. I imagine Spider-Geddon he may be shown fighting murderous urges and if he relents it will probably be a villain he kills.

[boots]

Well, couldn't the current take on Ben Reilly still be summed up as "Peter in a shittier situation" (albeit infinitely shittier than before)?

ben on the road/not allowed in nyc is a situation that relates to circumstance. ben going through psychosis relates to character.

it's also degrees of difference. people seem to be arguing it's all or nothing (its ALL peter in a shitty situation), when it's really levels of nuance.

I think the way those divergent experiences shaped Ben are fascinating, even when they aren't a radical departure from Peter. Especially if Peter feels they are a radical departure. Imagine, for instance, how Peter and Ben might have butted heads during Civil War. Ben having gone out of his way to protect Peter's identity and all. Or just feeling less secure and more protective of his privacy than a post-Avengers Peter Parker.

I think Ben offers the potential to get back to some of the cockiness and anti-social tendencies Peter exhibited in the 60s and 70s. Also, being something of an unknown, and thus less trusted by other superheroes and the world at large. Kind of a 'back to basics' approach where fans could have their cake and eat it too.

yeah, as i said, that's what i enjoy about ben too.

but i also can't blame marvel for thinking that's not enough of a difference to warrant another book.

it worked well in the 90s because it meant that, when ben took over as peter, he would be a refreshed peter. the apple didn't fall far enough from the tree to be unrecognisable and was close enough to be an acceptable replacement.

that purpose no longer exists, so it's debatable how easily the same ben can (co)exist in the modern mu.

I guess I'd personally rather deal with Ben only getting the occasional mini-series or just popping up in other books than having his character radically changed to spike interest.

i'd be 100% down for that.

[boots]

One of the things I've never fully understood is the push for heroes who don't typically kill to finally do so.

Having Ben Reilly become a murderer is a variation on that push, even if he isn't the 'core' Peter Parker.

Once a hero kills, the interest in the idea fades (you can only pull that trigger once), but the stigma attached to the (mis)characterization doesn't.

yeah, it can be interesting to wonder what a peter that kills would be like. and that's the role kaine should fill

[boots]

Cliched as it may be the redemption arc is another proven formula and one that I personally feel would have worked if done right.

thats the sad thing- "if done right". and we've seen examples of similar stories that were well received. it can be done

[David Walton]

yeah, it can be interesting to wonder what a peter that kills would be like. and that's the role kaine should fill

That's my thoughts as well. Kaine fits the role well and was a killer from the very beginning, so it's no surprise that his brand of heroism is different than Peter and Ben's.

[David Walton]

thats the sad thing- "if done right". and we've seen examples of similar stories that were well received. it can be done

From what I've read--and again, I'm not caught up--PAD does a really good job with the concept. That's no surprise, as pretty much anything he touches is readable and interesting, even if I'm not sold on the premise.

And I understand why Marvel went the route they did. It's not an objectively 'wrong' direction, I just have strong feelings about who the character is. It's all subjective. Ben Reilly has always been a lightning rod for controversy. Fans loved him when he took down Venom, hated him when he was revealed as the real Peter Parker, and mourned him when he died. And I think he became more popular after OMD, when he was seen as a contrast to Peter's deal with the devil (just as he was originally a contrast to Peter's truce with Venom).

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Didn't they?

I mean back in the day he was a popular fan theory of the identity of the stand-in Green Goblin Norman was using during Spider Hunt and Goblins at the Gate story line and there's tons of fan fiction over the years were Ben returns as a villain either brainwashed or traumatized.

I don't think many fans preferred route for the characters comeback but I think most see that this is the most reliable route to bring characters of Ben's type back and no one wants them to stay as villains. Cliched as it may be the redemption arc is another proven formula and one that I personally feel would have worked if done right.

Also if there's any sliver of good in Ben's comeback it's that he isn't murderous. Ben's whole deal as the Jackal was that he wanted to keep people from dying whatever the costs. In incredibly warped ways, true but his motivation was a sympathetic one. As off as his characterization has been in most of the Scarlet Spider series he wasn't murderous until the last issue where his soul is corrupted but frankly he hasn't successfully murdered anyone...yet. I imagine Spider-Geddon he may be shown fighting murderous urges and if he relents it will probably be a villain he kills.

Those were fanfic theories, not actual wishes for his return.

Ben was popular for who he was. There was no reason to change it. The idea failed to bring in new fans while simultaneously alienating old fans. And then they double-downed on the bad idea.

[Orbus]

These were fanfic theories, not actual wishes for his return.

Sure but if fans wrote it they must have thought it was a good idea.

That's my thoughts as well. Kaine fits the role well and was a killer from the very beginning, so it's no surprise that his brand of heroism is different than Peter and Ben's.

I would argue that the set up of the Clone Conspiracy showed Ben wasn't a killer. Even what he did with the Jackal was more along of the lines of the Batman "I wont kill but I'm not going to save you either".

It was basically Slott's taking what he did with Spider-Man's hang up of "no one dies" to an extreme but it could have been a very interesting set up for anti-hero Ben. Imagine the series beginning with him stopping a robbery or a beating and really going to laying into the criminal about how he could have killed someone.

From what I've read--and again, I'm not caught up--PAD does a really good job with the concept. That's no surprise, as pretty much anything he touches is readable and interesting, even if I'm not sold on the premise.

And I understand why Marvel went the route they did. It's not an objectively 'wrong' direction, I just have strong feelings about who the character is. It's all subjective. Ben Reilly has always been a lightning rod for controversy. Fans loved him when he took down Venom, hated him when he was revealed as the real Peter Parker, and mourned him when he died. And I think he became more popular after OMD, when he was seen as a contrast to Peter's deal with the devil (just as he was originally a contrast to Peter's truce with Venom).

Strangely not as much as you'd think. He was very popular when he first debuted and remained so for a while. A lot of fans didn't care for him being revealed as the "real" Peter Parker but I'm not sure that was as big of a deal as people build it up since sales remained constant during Ben's tenure as Spider-Man. Either fans knew even then that these things get reversed or frankly more people were fine with Ben as the lead character than we think. It's only now that everyone writes off that period as being the worst thing that ever happened to Spider-Man comics.

Anyhoo as I'm sure many people will have them here's my pitch for how to fix Ben...

Ben resides in Vegas fighting crime and the murderous urges that he's been left with since his soul was corrupted. Through his inner narration we see how he cannot live with being in this limbo but doesn't have the strength to end his life when he is approached by Mephisto with a deal; He will grant Ben his perfect life to live without any interference from him or any other cosmic entity and in exchange once he has lived a full life in the perfect world he gets Ben's soul. Ben is hesitant so Mephisto shows him what he could have...

Ben suddenly wakes up in his new life. It's the life he would have had if he was the real Peter Parker and not the clone. He's lives in NYC, he's blonde, works at the Daily Grind and he fights crime as the one true Spider-Man. He also dates Desiree Wintropp and the two of them are getting serious. Everything seems perfect but when he checks in with the Parkers only to find that Peter is dead of clone degeneration and Mary Jane is left widowed to bring up May alone.

When his best friend and mentor Seward Trainer is being targeted by super villains like Doctor Octopus (Carolyn Trainer), Delilah, Armada and Mysterio with his 90s design Ben theorizes that Kaine is involved only for Seward to remind him that Kaine is dead after being shot by police during a one of their battles. After a battle saving Seward and the city from Ben's rogues he says goodbye to Desiree and all of his loved one before going to a secluded spot and calls out the prince of lies to show himself and tells him that his perfect world could never be one where his brothers are dead and no matter what happens Mephisto will never get his soul. After a tussle Mephisto fades away saying "you're not the Spider-Man whose soul I want anyway".

Ben wakes up to find himself in an alley in Vegas. He wonders if any of it was real until he sees his reflection and his hair is now blonde. Purges of his murderous urges he gets on his motorcycle to see more of the country. This is his brand new day.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Sure but if fans wrote it they must have thought it was a good idea.



I would argue that the set up of the Clone Conspiracy showed Ben wasn't a killer. Even what he did with the Jackal was more along of the lines of the Batman "I wont kill but I'm not going to save you either".

It was basically Slott's taking what he did with Spider-Man's hang up of "no one dies" to an extreme but it could have been a very interesting set up for anti-hero Ben. Imagine the series beginning with him stopping a robbery or a beating and really going to laying into the criminal about how he could have killed someone.



Strangely not as much as you'd think. He was very popular when he first debuted and remained so for a while. A lot of fans didn't care for him being revealed as the "real" Peter Parker but I'm not sure that was as big of a deal as people build it up since sales remained constant during Ben's tenure as Spider-Man. Either fans knew even then that these things get reversed or frankly more people were fine with Ben as the lead character than we think. It's only now that everyone writes off that period as being the worst thing that ever happened to Spider-Man comics.

Anyhoo as I'm sure many people will have them here's my pitch for how to fix Ben...

Ben resides in Vegas fighting crime and the murderous urges that he's been left with since his soul was corrupted. Through his inner narration we see how he cannot live with being in this limbo but doesn't have the strength to end his life when he is approached by Mephisto with a deal; He will grant Ben his perfect life to live without any interference from him or any other cosmic entity and in exchange once he has lived a full life in the perfect world he gets Ben's soul. Ben is hesitant so Mephisto shows him what he could have...

Ben suddenly wakes up in his new life. It's the life he would have had if he was the real Peter Parker and not the clone. He's lives in NYC, he's blonde, works at the Daily Grind and he fights crime as the one true Spider-Man. He also dates Desiree Wintropp and the two of them are getting serious. Everything seems perfect but when he checks in with the Parkers only to find that Peter is dead of clone degeneration and Mary Jane is left widowed to bring up May alone.

When his best friend and mentor Seward Trainer is being targeted by super villains like Doctor Octopus (Carolyn Trainer), Delilah, Armada and Mysterio with his 90s design Ben theorizes that Kaine is involved only for Seward to remind him that Kaine is dead after being shot by police during a one of their battles. After a battle saving Seward and the city from Ben's rogues he says goodbye to Desiree and all of his loved one before going to a secluded spot and calls out the prince of lies to show himself and tells him that his perfect world could never be one where his brothers are dead and no matter what happens Mephisto will never get his soul. After a tussle Mephisto fades away saying "you're not the Spider-Man whose soul I want anyway".

Ben wakes up to find himself in an alley in Vegas. He wonders if any of it was real until he sees his reflection and his hair is now blonde. Purges of his murderous urges he gets on his motorcycle to see more of the country. This is his brand new day.

Fans write all kinds of crazy stuff. And most of them probably weren't even Ben fans to begin with.

[Huntsman Spider]

I actually like that idea, Orbus. I like it a lot. And with Mephisto claiming that Ben isn't the Spider-Man he actually wants, Ben might actually take the risk of going back to New York to warn Peter, if not necessarily reconcile with him. For all he knows, after what he did in The Clone Conspiracy, Peter wants absolutely nothing to do with him anymore, but because Peter's his brother and he loves him like one, he has to alert him to Mephisto gunning for his soul, which kicks off a chain of events that leads to the Spider-Men confronting Mephisto to undo One More Day.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

The problem isn't that Ben can't be redeemed, it's that Marvel clearly has no interest in doing so.

[Huntsman Spider]

The problem isn't that Ben can't be redeemed, it's that Marvel clearly has no interest in doing so.

That is a very good point, I'm sorry to say. Maybe it's not so much a matter of "can't" as "won't."

[Orbus]

I actually like that idea, Orbus. I like it a lot. And with Mephisto claiming that Ben isn't the Spider-Man he actually wants, Ben might actually take the risk of going back to New York to warn Peter, if not necessarily reconcile with him. For all he knows, after what he did in The Clone Conspiracy, Peter wants absolutely nothing to do with him anymore, but because Peter's his brother and he loves him like one, he has to alert him to Mephisto gunning for his soul, which kicks off a chain of events that leads to the Spider-Men confronting Mephisto to undo One More Day.

My thinking with that pitch that it essentially benches Ben. We can just assume he's out there travelling the country and if a writer has an idea for him, either a new series or part of a Spider event then he can easily put on the costume and come back without a writer having to deal with any of the corrupted soul nonsense.

The problem isn't that Ben can't be redeemed, it's that Marvel clearly has no interest in doing so.

I'm not so sure. I know Marvel publishes books starring villains but I got the sense they probably wanted Ben with a Bucky-esque redemption arc. At very least leave him in an ant-hero role.

I think PAD went a bit wild with the first arc, he liked the idea of a deranged version of Spider-Man. He sorta did get round to doing a redemption story when Death healed his scars and cured his insanity, a lot of fans did like that issue but then it became part of a karmic story where his bad deeds would be physically punished and good deeds physically rewarded. It made his redemption seem more about keeping his face from being scarred than a genuine effort to change.

[Celgress]

For those interested, I've posted the first teaser chapter of my sequel to "Two Lost Souls" -

Title

SuperDokis and Spider Brothers

Spider-Man + Doki Doki Literature Club Crossover

Summary

Sequel to Two Lost Souls. If Ben and Monika thought they would have a peaceful life after settling in LA they were gravely mistaken. The sins of Ben's recent past threaten to destroy everything they have fought so hard to build when an old foe returns. Meanwhile, Yuri, Natsuki & Sayori face challenges as they navigate a strange new world filled with superheroes and supervillains luckily Kaine is there to help them out.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1310053...pider-Brothers

If so inclined, enjoy