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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Spider-Man View Post
    He's already had two heroic deaths.

    The book was doomed to fail from the outset due to the status quo Slott created for him. I said as much before the first issue came out. It's actually a small miracle it made it all the way to 25 issues.
    I disagree.

    I know I'm repeating myself with this but I just don't see how Ben's return would have worked any other way. It's not like the character has much usable mythology, you can't just bring him back and have him working at the Daily Grind and fight crime in NYC like the old days. Even simply bringing him back as a hero in another city would not work, in 2018 a non Peter Parker Spider title needs to be distinct in order to survive. Simply being Spider-Man with a hoodie is not going to cut it.

    On the other hand the hero long thought dead come back as a villain and then take them on a redemption arc from from anti-hero to hero again has reliably worked similar characters. The Clone Conspiracy may not have been the strongest of events but it left Reilly in a place that has a proven track record of working.

    The problem was that PAD was uninterested in any redemption arc. That was clear from the eerie smile through the mask on all the promo images and the previews showing Ben charging people for being rescued it wasn't going to take Ben on a redemption journey.

    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    While Kaine’s book was undeniably better, it wouldn’t have mattered. They both had the exact same number of issues before being cancelled: 25. If anything Marvel probably kept Ben’s book going a bit longer than it would’ve out of respect for long-time employee Peter David. It’s numbers were shocking... it was selling like 13,000 copies a month towards the end, maybe lower.
    Yost's Scarlet Spider series was not a big seller but it did better than PAD's but more importantly the people who read it liked it and left Kaine with enough interest to still have a presence in the Marvel Universe even after the book folded. He played a prominent role in both Spider-Verse and The Clone Conspiracy. If PAD's Scarlet Spider series had met with a similar reception it's likely Ben (and Kaine) wouldn't likely be on the chopping block for Spider-Geddon now.

  2. #632
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    If we lose Kaine, but keep friggin’ Spider-Gwen.... then just “ugh.”

  3. #633
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Theoretically, Ben is the guy who doesn't break no matter what life throws his way. He's the guy who thought he was the real Peter Parker, then had all that ripped away (along with his support system). He tried to put power and responsibility behind him, but found he couldn't shake the Parker conscience. And then he discovered that he had been the real Peter Parker all along, only to have it ripped away AGAIN.

    There's enough there to differentiate him from other Spider-themed characters running around.
    look, i love that take but isn't it really just peter in a shittier situation?

    i'd find it interesting personally (and moreso than ASM), but idk if it would sell truckloads of books.
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  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    look, i love that take but isn't it really just peter in a shittier situation?

    i'd find it interesting personally (and moreso than ASM), but idk if it would sell truckloads of books.


    If people are always going to approach anything involving Ben with the mentality of " He's just Peter but _____" then to me the character simply isn't for you. Even the direction they took this time somebody could make the case thatif Marvel, really, really wanted to they could've done the same thing with Peter....That's either a stumbling block for somebody or it isn't...pretty cut and dry imho.



    Also why is there this requirement placed on a book involving Ben that he must sell massive amounts of books to make it worthwhile ??? Pretty sure the same expectations weren't placed upon slapstick, solo, prowler or any of the other books Marvel were handing out ongoings to so not sure why some place this expectation on anything involving Ben.
    Last edited by classicgmer; 10-17-2018 at 08:18 PM.

  5. #635
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    . Even the direction they took this time somebody could make the case thatif Marvel, really, really wanted to they could've done the same thing with Peter....

    except that marvel can't/won't do that with peter. the only time they tried pushing peter over the edge was the i am spider hilarity of the 90s. the thing about the 90s take on ben was that it was (very well) designed to allow him to take over the spider titles...a ship that has long sailed.

    there is definitely something to be said (which i...uh..said...earlier in this thread) for ben being a take on peter that writers can run free with...but there's probably a more interesting take to be found inbetween "peter whose really, really down on his luck" and "psycho killer qu'est-ce que c'est fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-far"

    it's finding that sweet spot and the right level of nuance to make it work.

    Also why is there this requirement placed on a book involving Ben that he must sell massive amounts of books to make it worthwhile ???
    probably helps it get past #25
    troo fan or death

  6. #636
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    look, i love that take but isn't it really just peter in a shittier situation?
    Well, couldn't the current take on Ben Reilly still be summed up as "Peter in a shittier situation" (albeit infinitely shittier than before)?

    Ben will always be a Peter Parker whose life diverged from Peter Parker in ASM #149.

    I think the way those divergent experiences shaped Ben are fascinating, even when they aren't a radical departure from Peter. Especially if Peter feels they are a radical departure. Imagine, for instance, how Peter and Ben might have butted heads during Civil War. Ben having gone out of his way to protect Peter's identity and all. Or just feeling less secure and more protective of his privacy than a post-Avengers Peter Parker.

    I think Ben offers the potential to get back to some of the cockiness and anti-social tendencies Peter exhibited in the 60s and 70s. Also, being something of an unknown, and thus less trusted by other superheroes and the world at large. Kind of a 'back to basics' approach where fans could have their cake and eat it too.

    i'd find it interesting personally (and moreso than ASM), but idk if it would sell truckloads of books.
    I guess I'd personally rather deal with Ben only getting the occasional mini-series or just popping up in other books than having his character radically changed to spike interest.

    You've got guys like Dr. Strange who don't necessarily generate great numbers but they're well loved. I mean, maybe a book where Strange renounces magic and becomes a ninja with the Punisher's philosophy of crimefighting would make some short term gains in sales, but suddenly Dr. Strange doesn't feel like Dr. Strange, you know?

  7. #637
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    One of the things I've never fully understood is the push for heroes who don't typically kill to finally do so.

    Having Ben Reilly become a murderer is a variation on that push, even if he isn't the 'core' Peter Parker.

    Once a hero kills, the interest in the idea fades (you can only pull that trigger once), but the stigma attached to the (mis)characterization doesn't.

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I guess I'd personally rather deal with Ben only getting the occasional mini-series or just popping up in other books than having his character radically changed to spike interest.

    You've got guys like Dr. Strange who don't necessarily generate great numbers but they're well loved. I mean, maybe a book where Strange renounces magic and becomes a ninja with the Punisher's philosophy of crimefighting would make some short term gains in sales, but suddenly Dr. Strange doesn't feel like Dr. Strange, you know?
    Baring in mind that Dr Strange has had runs that have taken him in left of the field directions including the current one which took him to space reviving the character every few years is easy as there's a fair amount of foundational elements that even a layman will know; The Sanctum Sanctorum, Wong, Eye of Agamotto, Dormammu, Nightmare. A writer doesn't have to be an expert of the characters history to write him.

    Ben Reilly on the other hand has little in the way of usable mythology. Seward a Trainer is dead (suprised Ben didn't bring him back in Clone Conspiracy), he can't just take up a job at the Daily Grind and hang out with his old supporting cast and all of his unique rogues gallery have fallen into obscurity.

    A writer could weave in classic Ben Reilly elements but it would require a deep dive into into the 90s clone saga that I doubt anyone would want to do hence why PAD decided to just completely go his own way with the character. That being said I do think The Lost Years and Redemption should be required reading for someone writing a Ben Reilly book especially if it includes Kaine. Heck this could have been a spiritual sequel to Redemption but with the Ben and Kaine roles swapped. What could gave been.
    Last edited by Orbus; 10-18-2018 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    Baring in mind that Dr Strange has had runs that have taken him in left of the field directions including the current one which took him to space reviving the character every few years is easy as there's a fair amount of foundational elements that even a layman will know; The Sanctum Sanctorum, Wong, Eye of Agamotto, Dormammu, Nightmare. A writer doesn't have to be an expert of the characters history to write him.

    Ben Reilly on the other hand has little in the way of usable mythology. Seward a Trainer is dead (suprised Ben didn't bring him back in Clone Conspiracy), he can't just take up a job at the Daily Grind and hang out with his old supporting cast and all of his unique rogues gallery have fallen into obscurity.

    A writer could weave in classic Ben Reilly elements but it would require a deep dive into into the 90s clone saga that I doubt anyone would want to do hence why PAD decided to just completely go his own way with the character. That being said I do think The Lost Years and Redemption should be required reading for someone writing a Ben Reilly book especially if it includes Kaine. Heck this could have been a spiritual sequel to Redemption but with the Ben and Kaine roles swapped. What could gave been.
    I still say they should have had him in therapy, make amends with Peter and have him go back to being sort of an ally or "sidekick" to Peter's Spider-Man and THEN launch his solo series, of course if everything in Scarlet Spider wound up being a bad case of psychosis brought on by his trauma it would be a very cheap trick, but could also be worked with.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  10. #640
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    You could easily have Ben traveling the country again, trying to find himself. LOST YEARS is a fantastic template.

    I'm not a fan of 'swapping' Ben and Kaine's roles. If Kaine grows into a more anti-heroic role, that works for me. His redemption felt earned. But I'm not thrilled with the concept of Ben turning villain in Clone Conspiracy.

  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You could easily have Ben traveling the country again, trying to find himself. LOST YEARS is a fantastic template.

    I'm not a fan of 'swapping' Ben and Kaine's roles. If Kaine grows into a more anti-heroic role, that works for me. His redemption felt earned. But I'm not thrilled with the concept of Ben turning villain in Clone Conspiracy.
    I agree with everything you've written. Ben in a "Lost Years" type story still has much potential.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #642
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    I don't know why a writer can't simply make Ben into someone else, like a new persona and move him away from the spiders. Give him a new gimmick, obviously Scarlet Spider did not pan out so give him a different role besides "Morlun fodder lulz", otherwise I don't know why they bothered bringing him back to begin with.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    I don't know why a writer can't simply make Ben into someone else, like a new persona and move him away from the spiders. Give him a new gimmick, obviously Scarlet Spider did not pan out so give him a different role besides "Morlun fodder lulz", otherwise I don't know why they bothered bringing him back to begin with.
    Nah, I disagree. Separating Ben from spiders, is like separating Logan from wolverines, or separating Bruce Wayne from bats. Scarlet Spider is an integral part of his identity, imo. I wouldn’t feel like I was reading Ben’s adventures if he was like in a grasshopper costume lol. The only thing that could work... and I think only on a short-term basis.... is him going back to no secret identity like in ‘Lost Years.’

  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    I still say they should have had him in therapy, make amends with Peter and have him go back to being sort of an ally or "sidekick" to Peter's Spider-Man and THEN launch his solo series, of course if everything in Scarlet Spider wound up being a bad case of psychosis brought on by his trauma it would be a very cheap trick, but could also be worked with.
    I think a longer story arc with Ben in the main Amazing Spider-Man book would have been a better springboard for a Ben solo book. Alternatively The Clone Conspiracy needed to be longer, most of the parts that dealt with Ben's trauma and his motivations needed to be in the main book rather than the tie ins as did his final confrontation with the Jackal. I liked the cover with Jackal-Ben fighting Jackal-Miles over Peter's body, I wonder if that was a dropped element, such a scene a scene would have better shown Ben wasn't so far gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You could easily have Ben traveling the country again, trying to find himself. LOST YEARS is a fantastic template.

    I'm not a fan of 'swapping' Ben and Kaine's roles. If Kaine grows into a more anti-heroic role, that works for me. His redemption felt earned. But I'm not thrilled with the concept of Ben turning villain in Clone Conspiracy.
    I wasn't really suggesting we literally 180 swap their roles but more a repeat of the climax to Redemption. Like a repeat of the dramatic climax with Kaine rescuing Reilly from the fire and then after Reilly talking Kaine down from his self destructive path. Something like that but the other way around would have worked. To be fair I quite liked PAD twist with Ben making a deal with Death for Kaine and Abigail's life and full filled a similar-ish role but it didn't really push forward the relationship with Kaine or Ben's redemption and was the start of PAD's ongoing storyline of cosmic forces messing with Ben's soul.

    Ben travelling the country ala Lost Years would have been good too. Perhaps being joined by Janine (she's got to have served her sentence by now) and hunted by Kaine. This would not have required any deep dive into divisive 90s comics continuity just the one that most people agree was good. There's many routes they could have taken, what PAD did was fine for original character but not Ben.

  15. #645
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    The only moment in the entire series I thought Ben truly acted like the REAL Ben was the second half of #7 when he tried to sacrifice himself in order to save Kaine and Abigail. PAD is talented. He could’ve written OG Ben. But he didn’t have much interest in Ben’s actual history and wanted to go his own PAD route. I think he could’ve found a better balance and did it his own thing while still staying true to who Ben was. I find it a missed opportunity.

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