Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2018

[Pav]

Given the he's-obviously-not-actually-gonna-die ending to the most recent issue, it's safe to say Lowe was just talking about Not-Ben's current status.

That being said, if he was killed off, it'd be no biggie. In any real sense, Ben Reilly never returned. So if this new character was killed off, nothing's really changed. And the real Ben's memory can be slightly less tarnished.

Ben Reilly did return; you just didn't like the way it was handled -- which is fine.

This.

The book failed spectacularly because old school fans could not get over the colossal character assassination of Clone Conspiracy, and new fans had no reason to support him.

This Ben started off as a Machiavellian schemer who had betrayed everything the original Ben and Peter stood for. He was depicted as someone so uncompromisingly slimy that there was no chance any fresh reader would back him for the first time. I liked a lot of the ideas Peter David used in this, but for me this title would have simply benefited more being a relaunch for Kane and not Ben.

I know sales were never great, but the series lasted for twenty-five issues, which doesn't seem like a spectacular failure to me.

Ben's changes made sense due to the trauma he suffered. Again, you might not have liked that choice for him, but I saw "the real Ben" in these stories. I also took into account that, after twenty years and with a new writer, any character would feel somewhat different. But just as Fraction's Hawkeye is still the same character, PAD's Ben Reilly is still the same character.

Give me a character who changes in current stories over a character stuck in amber any day.

-Pav, whose memory of Ben hasn't been tarnished in the slightest...

[Vworp Vworp]

The book failed spectacularly because old school fans could not get over the colossal character assassination of Clone Conspiracy, and new fans had no reason to support him.

This Ben started off as a Machiavellian schemer who had betrayed everything the original Ben and Peter stood for. He was depicted as someone so uncompromisingly slimy that there was no chance any fresh reader would back him for the first time. I liked a lot of the ideas Peter David used in this, but for me this title would have simply benefited more being a relaunch for Kane and not Ben.

Yep.

I've said it before, but there was a way to make a damaged Ben work. And it wasn't rocket science either. Just write him as a damaged Ben. Simple as that. But at no point in this book has Peter David done that. There's been the name, the face and the costume. And that's it. Purely aesthetic references to an entirely different person.

This book's main character wasn't a Ben Reilly traumatised by a harrowing experience because there were no call backs to the character we know. It was a purely clean slate with some generic Deadpool'esque morally ambiguous wise-cracker. I know Ben. I've read the clone saga and his all-too-brief stint as Spidey more times than I've read any other comic. And that man never appeared in this book.

I'm drawn to making comparison with a certain character who returned to television just a few days ago after undergoing a very notable change themselves. Because on Sunday, the 13th Doctor hit the ground running in the first episode of the new series of Doctor Who. And so here's this new Doctor, changed again but in a way we've not seen in over 50 years. And throughout the entire episode, she was still The Doctor. The aesthetics have changed (a fair bit, this time!) but the character remains a pure constant. Right from the outset, I had absolutely no trouble totally believing that this woman was the same character I've been watching since the back end of the 70's.

With Not-Ben, it's been the complete antithesis of that. Same face, same costume... completely different person. Not just in terms of his moral ambiguity but his thoughts, his dialogue, everything. So I suppose it really comes down to what you value most. The character or the brand? And for me, it'll always be the former.

[HypnoHustler]

I can understand where both Vworp Vworp and Pav are coming from and I think I fall somewhere in between them in how I view current Ben. I think Slott really screwed up Ben (just like he screwed up Felicia and even Peter to an extent), but I think PAD undid at least some of the damage. SS#7 in which he encountered Death and reclaimed some of his soul (as well as his face) marked a change for the character and he’s been drifting more and more towards classic Ben ever since. Now, he isn’t like 90s Ben, but Peter isn’t like 90s Peter either (and Kaine definitely isn’t like 90s Kaine). Ben is still a much better person than he was at the end of Clone Conspiracy, despite Slott doing his best to damage the character. I wish that atrocious story could be retconned, but outside of a complete retcon I guess we will have to make do with PAD’s damaged soul explanation. In short, it could be better, it could be worse. I still don’t want current Ben to die, as I think he’s continuing to redeem himself and going in the right direction closer and closer to classic Ben... even if it’s too gradual for some.

[Pav]

Yep.

I've said it before, but there was a way to make a damaged Ben work. And it wasn't rocket science either. Just write him as a damaged Ben. Simple as that. But at no point in this book has Peter David done that. There's been the name, the face and the costume. And that's it. Purely aesthetic references to an entirely different person.

This book's main character wasn't a Ben Reilly traumatised by a harrowing experience because there were no call backs to the character we know. It was a purely clean slate with some generic Deadpool'esque morally ambiguous wise-cracker. I know Ben. I've read the clone saga and his all-too-brief stint as Spidey more times than I've read any other comic. And that man never appeared in this book.

I'm drawn to making comparison with a certain character who returned to television just a few days ago after undergoing a very notable change themselves. Because on Sunday, the 13th Doctor hit the ground running in the first episode of the new series of Doctor Who. And so here's this new Doctor, changed again but in a way we've not seen in over 50 years. And throughout the entire episode, she was still The Doctor. The aesthetics have changed (a fair bit, this time!) but the character remains a pure constant. Right from the outset, I had absolutely no trouble totally believing that this woman was the same character I've been watching since the back end of the 70's.

With Not-Ben, it's been the complete antithesis of that. Same face, same costume... completely different person. Not just in terms of his moral ambiguity but his thoughts, his dialogue, everything. So I suppose it really comes down to what you value most. The character or the brand? And for me, it'll always be the former.

Which issues of the new series have you read? I'm curious if you're basing your perspective on only the first few. To me, PAD has done exactly what you've said you want --given us a damaged Ben -- except that you personally don't care for the execution. That's how it goes sometimes. But the fact that the idea in your head doesn't match what PAD gave us doesn't negate PAD's stories, or make Ben any less "real."

I care just as much about the character as you, Vworp. It's not the "brand" I care about. But I care about the character being used - changing and growing - rather than being stuck in a single place. I can accept that a character who gets used may get used "badly" -- but again, after twenty years of waiting, I can deal with it, because at least new stories are being made, and I have no problem head canoning things to clean up the messiness. To me, declaring that you don't like the new directory/voice for Ben is more honest than declaring that it's not the same character.

(I'm reminded of those cases where a person has severe head trauma and their personalities change. Is it the same person?)

Don't get me wrong: I'd have loved to see PAD use impact webbing in his stories, or bring back some of Ben's old villains. But I'm not going to de-legimitize PAD's work just because it may not match my conception of the character.

-Pav, who thinks HypnoHustler put it well, especially in acknowledging that Peter and Kaine don't feel the same as they did in the 90s as well...

[Miles To Go]

I can understand where both Vworp Vworp and Pav are coming from and I think I fall somewhere in between them in how I view current Ben. I think Slott really screwed up Ben (just like he screwed up Felicia and even Peter to an extent), but I think PAD undid at least some of the damage. SS#7 in which he encountered Death and reclaimed some of his soul (as well as his face) marked a change for the character and he’s been drifting more and more towards classic Ben ever since. Now, he isn’t like 90s Ben, but Peter isn’t like 90s Peter either (and Kaine definitely isn’t like 90s Kaine).

And that's precisely why Peter struggles these days, and why he's not even considered the focus of events like Spider-Verse and Spidergeddon, and why he's losing his position in his own world in favor of new Spider-Characters. He no longer acts like the expectant father of the 90s or the experienced science teacher and/or Avenger of the 2000s, in terms of maturity or age.

I'd say Kane's been pretty consistent...not what he was like in the 90s, but not forgetting who he was back then either as he evolved.

[Inversed]

For me personally, the thing I noticed with PAD's work, namely this and his Spider-Man 2099, is he likes to have a very slow build with his storytelling. The problem this causes is the early issues spend so much time setting up that many people get uninterested and start to drop off, and then when the book eventually gets cancelled, he's left having to rush his ending. That's what happened with 2099 and looks like what's going on with Scarlet Spider.

I do think especially since Ben Reilly had such a controversial turn in Clone Conspiracy that the first arc should've felt alot more fast-paced and focused in order to entice people in that may have been on the fence. Also being self-aware of the lifespan is very helpful too so the ending doesn't feel rushed. Because overall 25 issues for a series like this is very commendable, a tweak in the pacing may have helped it out alot more.

[HypnoHustler]

For me personally, the thing I noticed with PAD's work, namely this and his Spider-Man 2099, is he likes to have a very slow build with his storytelling. The problem this causes is the early issues spend so much time setting up that many people get uninterested and start to drop off, and then when the book eventually gets cancelled, he's left having to rush his ending. That's what happened with 2099 and looks like what's going on with Scarlet Spider.

I do think especially since Ben Reilly had such a controversial turn in Clone Conspiracy that the first arc should've felt alot more fast-paced and focused in order to entice people in that may have been on the fence. Also being self-aware of the lifespan is very helpful too so the ending doesn't feel rushed. Because overall 25 issues for a series like this is very commendable, a tweak in the pacing may have helped it out alot more.

Yeah, the first five issues of this series were not good, writing wise. They had stunning Bagley art, but I never reread them unlike later issues in the run. I almost gave up on it. Ben is so unlikeable those first few issues (remember the subplot with him trying to shake down the mugging victim Mandy for money? Or hiring a “kill crew” to ... well, kill Kaine? Or Ben walking around looking like a burn victim? Ugh) PAD should’ve resolved that stuff in 1-2 issues. The book has been pretty good since issue 6 or 7. It’s a shame there’s probably some readers who bailed out early and missed the good stuff because of the problems I mentioned.

[Huntsman Spider]

And that's precisely why Peter struggles these days, and why he's not even considered the focus of events like Spider-Verse and Spidergeddon, and why he's losing his position in his own world in favor of new Spider-Characters. He no longer acts like the expectant father of the 90s or the experienced science teacher and/or Avenger of the 2000s, in terms of maturity or age.

I'd say Kane's been pretty consistent...not what he was like in the 90s, but not forgetting who he was back then either as he evolved.

To be fair, in regards to what you mentioned, I think Peter's soul, in more ways than one, was as much damaged by One More Day as Ben Reilly was by The Clone Conspiracy. He might not have been torturously murdered and resurrected over two dozen times to put him in a psychotic state where nothing was off-limits if it meant making sense of what had been done to him, but Peter did have something fundamental to his character, to the very integrity of his soul, taken from him in One More Day and he's never been the same since. The deal with Mephisto, even if it was for "good" reasons or a "good" cause, was as much an utter betrayal of who he was and what he stood for as Ben's transformation into the demented Jackal who imagined himself master of life and death. That's what the character has never really recovered from, in my view.

Ironically, though, OMD happened because some/certain people at Marvel thought the Spider-Man of the 90s and 2000s had gotten "stale" and needed some "fresh lifeblood" pumped into him, much like Ben Reilly was killed off because he, too, had grown "stale" in the minds of some of those same people. Of course, the end result was that in both cases, nearly everything people loved about both Parker and Reilly, namely their character development and evolution over the years, was thrown out the window in favor of what those people at Marvel thought would "freshen" them up. That's really what it amounts to, and the way I see it, if Ben dies in Spider-Geddon, that's just so Marvel can throw up their collective hands and say, "We tried again, but it didn't work," while completely ignoring or excusing the utter misfire that was The Clone Conspiracy and how it damaged Ben's character so much that it had an alienating effect on so many of his fans. No, not letting them have the satisfaction of pretending they tried so hard when they really didn't, they just threw s*** at the wall to see if it would stick.

[boots]

i agree with pav that alot of other characters read very differently now to the way they did in the 90s. deadpool, to use an example in this thread. kaine is another example. i don't recognise this current iteration of peter's effed up clone.

there's nothing wrong with that. it's business as usual.

the difference i suppose is that those are widely accepted as improvements or favourable changes. for whatever reason, i couldn't get behind this take.

[Celgress]

...the difference i suppose is that those are widely accepted as improvements or favourable changes. for whatever reason, i couldn't get behind this take.

Nor can I, at least not fully. I've tried goodness knows I've tried but the new iteration of Ben's character just doesn't click with me.

[boots]

Nor can I, at least not fully. I've tried goodness knows I've tried but the new iteration of Ben's character just doesn't click with me.

yeah, like you...i gave it a go. i'd actually say my lack of interest goes beyond the "iteration" of ben and into the setting and cast too.

[HypnoHustler]

I just read an advance copy of SS#25. I take back everything good I said about this run. This is a slap in the face for everyone who wanted the good Ben back. He’s now worse than he was in Clone Conspiracy. Awful, awful twist.

[boots]

I just read an advance copy of SS#25. I take back everything good I said about this run. This is a slap in the face for everyone who wanted the good Ben back. He’s now worse than he was in Clone Conspiracy. Awful, awful twist.

i’m definitely picking it up now hahahahaha

[MetalWoman]

Just finished 25 myself. Man that was sad, poor Ben. Though a nice callback to the original Clone Saga in the last panels.

[Batman Begins 2005]

I just read an advance copy of SS#25. I take back everything good I said about this run. This is a slap in the face for everyone who wanted the good Ben back. He’s now worse than he was in Clone Conspiracy. Awful, awful twist.

Oh no. That bad?