Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2018

[Digifiend]

Superior Octopus is just a Spidergeddon tie-in one-shot.

[Kurolegacy]

We've been expecting this for months now so no real surprise here.
When the title is selling 14K it's frankly on borrowed time and has been for months.
However, in today's publishing cycle a 25 issue run is a successful one. I highly doubt that Ben, Kaine and crew just go into limbo.

Hell its even more impressive when you realize that Ben made it to 25 issues which tops even Kaine’s 24 issue run. Really putting both together having both passed the 20 issue mark that so many books fail to achieve, I’d call this a success.

[classicgmer]

Hell its even more impressive when you realize that Ben made it to 25 issues which tops even Kaine’s 24 issue run. Really putting both together having both passed the 20 issue mark that so many books fail to achieve, I’d call this a success.

A 25 issue run is pretty good no matter how you look at it but if we're comparing the two volumes of SS I think the Yost run featuring Kaine is a bit more impressive because.


#1 It's actually 25 issues not 24 and if you count the .1 issue it's 26 issues which would be one more than the current run if the cancellation rumor is true.



# 2. Kaine's run shipped monthly whereas the current one has double shipped somewhat frequently.



#3 Kaine's run lasted i think two years whereas this one launched in April 2017 and is possibly bein cancelled in October.


Like i said 25 issues is 25 issue but i do personally think Yost's run was more impressive and it's not just because i favored the direction they took in that run over this current run.


EDIT: ignore the stupid emoji thing...i accidentally inserted it in the post and i can't edit it out now.

[Huntsman Spider]

A 25 issue run is pretty good no matter how you look at it but if we're comparing the two volumes of SS I think the Yost run featuring Kaine is a bit more impressive because.


#1 It's actually 25 issues not 24 and if you count the .1 issue it's 26 issues which would be one more than the current run if the cancellation rumor is true.



# 2. Kaine's run shipped monthly whereas the current one has double shipped somewhat frequently.



#3 Kaine's run lasted i think two years whereas this one launched in April 2017 and is possibly bein cancelled in October.


Like i said 25 issues is 25 issue but i do personally think Yost's run was more impressive and it's not just because i favored the direction they took in that run over this current run.


EDIT: ignore the stupid emoji thing...i accidentally inserted it in the post and i can't edit it out now.

I would agree with the last point, especially since Kaine came out of Spider-Island healed of his physical and mental degeneration and off the heels of a major heroic moment in said event, whereas Ben came out of The Clone Conspiracy as "another lunatic in a mask," quoting or paraphrasing Peter himself. Kaine's setup made people actually like the character or at least want to give him a chance even if his Clone Saga-era appearances had turned them off, whereas Ben's setup made people turn away from his character and as a result of that, his book was always going to be a tougher sell.

[HypnoHustler]

This is sad, but expected and not unfair news. As someone else said, you can’t sustain a book on 14k sales. The readership is equal to the size of a small town or medium-sized university.

This book had a really rough start, but had been mostly good (if not great) since issue #6. And I’d call issue #7 where Ben confronted Death as exceptional, definitely the most memorable issue of the run. That one was great. Taking into account the series still has 4 or so issues left, I’d give the run a B+. It’s not as good as Yost’s run on Kaine’s SS series, which I’d give an A grade, but that was truly special. Although even that wasn’t perfect (Kaine’s SS run definitely had a much stronger first half than second half). So it is what it is. I like PAD, and I like the book, but I was never in love with it. I’m not heartbroken it’s ending as long as there’s no cheap deaths for Ben and Kaine. And maybe this means they’ll interact more with Peter going forward (OTOH, if you’re a cynical pessimist, it could also mean one or both will die in Spidergeddon since that occurs around the same time as this book ending).

On the subject of cancellations...What Marvel book not starring a hero created in the 60s (and not named Deadpool or Punisher) lasts beyond 25 issues nowadays? Precious few. It’s a really tough time for comics, when even Silver Age staples like Fantastic Four have trouble maintaining enough readers to stay published. And it’s probably only going to get tougher unfortunately. That’s why we see nonstop reboot #1s and line-wide events all the time. And that’s why books like SS aren’t profitable enough to last long term. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did. The cut-off for cancellation in the early 90s at Marvel was like 40k iirc. Now that’d be a roaring success for a second-tier book. Oh how times have changed.

[boots]

finally read a couple of issues...19 and 20 i think, with mysteria. fun read, even if it wasn’t spectacular. best part is the art, love the indie vibe

[Batman Begins 2005]

A 25 issue run is pretty good no matter how you look at it but if we're comparing the two volumes of SS I think the Yost run featuring Kaine is a bit more impressive because.


#1 It's actually 25 issues not 24 and if you count the .1 issue it's 26 issues which would be one more than the current run if the cancellation rumor is true.



# 2. Kaine's run shipped monthly whereas the current one has double shipped somewhat frequently.



#3 Kaine's run lasted i think two years whereas this one launched in April 2017 and is possibly bein cancelled in October.


Like i said 25 issues is 25 issue but i do personally think Yost's run was more impressive and it's not just because i favored the direction they took in that run over this current run.


EDIT: ignore the stupid emoji thing...i accidentally inserted it in the post and i can't edit it out now.

I read all of Scarlet Spider and read Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider from the start. Scarlet Spider was the most impressive of the two titles. PAD had to wkr with the fallout of Reilly in TCC.

[Pav]

I read all of Scarlet Spider and read Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider from the start. Scarlet Spider was the most impressive of the two titles. PAD had to wkr with the fallout of Reilly in TCC.

It's interesting to consider the fan reaction to changes in characterization in these books. Some fans refused to touch Ben's book because of the change to his character while praising Kaine's, yet the character of Kaine changed just as much (if not more) from his original appearances. It seems fans will tolerate a bad guy becoming good much more than they'll tolerate a good guy becoming bad.

For my money, I see no real difference: just as real people's behaviors and personalities and motivations change, so too can a fictional character. For me, watching these characters change and grow (or regress) is enjoyable, regardless of the direction of their morality.

One thing that does irk me a bit, though, is the knowledge that Kaine's series was originally going to belong to Ben. Part of me thinks the character would be better off in that scenario: Ben would've never fallen into villainy and alienated some of his fans. Instead, Yost took the character of Kaine and made him into a Ben-esque figure; this required writers to figure out what to do with Ben, now that Kaine was a hero, and so we got Ben the Villain.

However, even though I do miss the original dynamic between Ben and Kaine, I will say that I do enjoy their current dynamic as well: two damaged brothers who are more in common than ever before, sharing a costumed identity. I hope their "partnership" continues to dominate their future stories, because I think they do tend to work best in tandem. (Yost's series didn't have enough clone shenanigans for my tastes.)

One wonders: if Ben was brought back during Spider-Island, as originally planned, would Kaine have been the man behind the Jackal mask in Clone Conspiracy? It'd be interesting to know what Dan maybe had planned in the back of his head originally for Ben and Kaine.

All that said, I just hope we get more adventures with these guys. Reading about them again has been a joy for me, even with all the weirdness of the book (like quick changes in direction, editorial mistakes, etc). I would love to see them with a writer who truly loves the characters and their history.

We shall see.

-Pav, who is excited to see how it all plays out...

[HypnoHustler]

It's interesting to consider the fan reaction to changes in characterization in these books. Some fans refused to touch Ben's book because of the change to his character while praising Kaine's, yet the character of Kaine changed just as much (if not more) from his original appearances. It seems fans will tolerate a bad guy becoming good much more than they'll tolerate a good guy becoming bad.

For my money, I see no real difference: just as real people's behaviors and personalities and motivations change, so too can a fictional character. For me, watching these characters change and grow (or regress) is enjoyable, regardless of the direction of their morality.

One thing that does irk me a bit, though, is the knowledge that Kaine's series was originally going to belong to Ben. Part of me thinks the character would be better off in that scenario: Ben would've never fallen into villainy and alienated some of his fans. Instead, Yost took the character of Kaine and made him into a Ben-esque figure; this required writers to figure out what to do with Ben, now that Kaine was a hero, and so we got Ben the Villain.

However, even though I do miss the original dynamic between Ben and Kaine, I will say that I do enjoy their current dynamic as well: two damaged brothers who are more in common than ever before, sharing a costumed identity. I hope their "partnership" continues to dominate their future stories, because I think they do tend to work best in tandem. (Yost's series didn't have enough clone shenanigans for my tastes.)

One wonders: if Ben was brought back during Spider-Island, as originally planned, would Kaine have been the man behind the Jackal mask in Clone Conspiracy? It'd be interesting to know what Dan maybe had planned in the back of his head originally for Ben and Kaine.

All that said, I just hope we get more adventures with these guys. Reading about them again has been a joy for me, even with all the weirdness of the book (like quick changes in direction, editorial mistakes, etc). I would love to see them with a writer who truly loves the characters and their history.

We shall see.

-Pav, who is excited to see how it all plays out...

Todd Dezago if you want to go light. JM DeMatteis if you want to go dark.

[Batman Begins 2005]

It's interesting to consider the fan reaction to changes in characterization in these books. Some fans refused to touch Ben's book because of the change to his character while praising Kaine's, yet the character of Kaine changed just as much (if not more) from his original appearances. It seems fans will tolerate a bad guy becoming good much more than they'll tolerate a good guy becoming bad.

For my money, I see no real difference: just as real people's behaviors and personalities and motivations change, so too can a fictional character. For me, watching these characters change and grow (or regress) is enjoyable, regardless of the direction of their morality.

One thing that does irk me a bit, though, is the knowledge that Kaine's series was originally going to belong to Ben. Part of me thinks the character would be better off in that scenario: Ben would've never fallen into villainy and alienated some of his fans. Instead, Yost took the character of Kaine and made him into a Ben-esque figure; this required writers to figure out what to do with Ben, now that Kaine was a hero, and so we got Ben the Villain.

However, even though I do miss the original dynamic between Ben and Kaine, I will say that I do enjoy their current dynamic as well: two damaged brothers who are more in common than ever before, sharing a costumed identity. I hope their "partnership" continues to dominate their future stories, because I think they do tend to work best in tandem. (Yost's series didn't have enough clone shenanigans for my tastes.)

One wonders: if Ben was brought back during Spider-Island, as originally planned, would Kaine have been the man behind the Jackal mask in Clone Conspiracy? It'd be interesting to know what Dan maybe had planned in the back of his head originally for Ben and Kaine.

All that said, I just hope we get more adventures with these guys. Reading about them again has been a joy for me, even with all the weirdness of the book (like quick changes in direction, editorial mistakes, etc). I would love to see them with a writer who truly loves the characters and their history.

We shall see.

-Pav, who is excited to see how it all plays out...

I've enjoyed the interplay between the brothers with their long history. One thing we haven't seen in Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider...where art thou Hummingbird? She's missed.

[HypnoHustler]

I've enjoyed the interplay between the brothers with their long history. One thing we haven't seen in Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider...where art thou Hummingbird? She's missed.

I’d like to see her, but I’d also like to see Janine, Jessica, Jimmy-6 and The Daily Grind crew. I have a feeling PAD didn’t read much of the clone saga before writing Scarlet Spider. And that’s fine. But I want the next writer who takes on Ben and Kaine to do a deep dive on their forgotten back stories and supporting characters.

[SuperiorIronman]

It's interesting to consider the fan reaction to changes in characterization in these books. Some fans refused to touch Ben's book because of the change to his character while praising Kaine's, yet the character of Kaine changed just as much (if not more) from his original appearances. It seems fans will tolerate a bad guy becoming good much more than they'll tolerate a good guy becoming bad.

For my money, I see no real difference: just as real people's behaviors and personalities and motivations change, so too can a fictional character. For me, watching these characters change and grow (or regress) is enjoyable, regardless of the direction of their morality.

One thing that does irk me a bit, though, is the knowledge that Kaine's series was originally going to belong to Ben. Part of me thinks the character would be better off in that scenario: Ben would've never fallen into villainy and alienated some of his fans. Instead, Yost took the character of Kaine and made him into a Ben-esque figure; this required writers to figure out what to do with Ben, now that Kaine was a hero, and so we got Ben the Villain.

However, even though I do miss the original dynamic between Ben and Kaine, I will say that I do enjoy their current dynamic as well: two damaged brothers who are more in common than ever before, sharing a costumed identity. I hope their "partnership" continues to dominate their future stories, because I think they do tend to work best in tandem. (Yost's series didn't have enough clone shenanigans for my tastes.)

One wonders: if Ben was brought back during Spider-Island, as originally planned, would Kaine have been the man behind the Jackal mask in Clone Conspiracy? It'd be interesting to know what Dan maybe had planned in the back of his head originally for Ben and Kaine.

All that said, I just hope we get more adventures with these guys. Reading about them again has been a joy for me, even with all the weirdness of the book (like quick changes in direction, editorial mistakes, etc). I would love to see them with a writer who truly loves the characters and their history.

We shall see.

-Pav, who is excited to see how it all plays out...

I don't think it's that people can't accept it, it's that for what came out of it the book did not have the setup to warrant it. With Kaine you could follow the logic of it because he was a misguided villain, anti-hero, and even warned Peter and saved him from Kraven's family. Then when he came back he still wasn't crazy about being a hero, but did so anyways and slowly developed into one. It didn't happen over night as far as the comics themselves go. But Kaine could be heroic and still the villain, in his own book he's sent to assassinate Wolverine. Sure it doesn't work, but he still briefly killed him. Kaine is about as much a hero as The Punisher, so while he's a heroic figure, he could at least as far as morality goes remain flexible.

Whereas with Ben it happens within a single issue as apart of the event he comes back in and its not explained how he came to the conclusion. It's a narrative roadblock because Dan never stopped to explain why. At best he lost his mind in the resurrection process, but even then Peter David comes in and says it's because his soul (a thing outside of his control and explained outside CC) got broken. But that also doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that he was "hand waved" as crazy, plain and simple. He's back and he's a bad guy because he's nuts. Nothing supported that in universe either which is pretty much why the soul thing worked to a limited degree.

Ben was basically setup all wrong and if the wheels started turning earlier it might've worked out a bit better for the character. Having him appear earlier and build up to the reveal it was him would've gone a long way into establishing him as a villain.

[Pav]

I've enjoyed the interplay between the brothers with their long history. One thing we haven't seen in Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider...where art thou Hummingbird? She's missed.

I’d like to see her, but I’d also like to see Janine, Jessica, Jimmy-6 and The Daily Grind crew. I have a feeling PAD didn’t read much of the clone saga before writing Scarlet Spider. And that’s fine. But I want the next writer who takes on Ben and Kaine to do a deep dive on their forgotten back stories and supporting characters.

I pretty much agree with you both. I've always been a guy who believed the best comic writers used continuity and character histories to strengthen the current stories being told. Kaine and Ben have plenty of history to be mined, and while I don't want a simple rehash of past stories, or characters brought back just because, I do want our Scarlet Spiders to have a supporting cast that matter, just as Peter's supporting cast matter.

Certain characters may not fit their world anymore - I'm thinking of the Daily Grind cast - but certainly there are more stories to tell with Elizabeth Tyne, Jessica, Jimmy-6, Joystick, D'Spayre, and of course Hummingbird. I am of the belief that, often, a comic fails not because the hero isn't interesting, but because his or her world isn't interesting; a lack of supporting cast and compelling villains is a death sentence, in my mind. For Ben and Kaine to survive, writers must populate their stories with other characters we care about, and all the better if we've seen them in past stories.

-Pav, who did like PAD's Las Vegas cast even if they weren't fleshed out beyond basic archetypes...

[HypnoHustler]

I don't think it's that people can't accept it, it's that for what came out of it the book did not have the setup to warrant it. With Kaine you could follow the logic of it because he was a misguided villain, anti-hero, and even warned Peter and saved him from Kraven's family. Then when he came back he still wasn't crazy about being a hero, but did so anyways and slowly developed into one. It didn't happen over night as far as the comics themselves go. But Kaine could be heroic and still the villain, in his own book he's sent to assassinate Wolverine. Sure it doesn't work, but he still briefly killed him. Kaine is about as much a hero as The Punisher, so while he's a heroic figure, he could at least as far as morality goes remain flexible.

Whereas with Ben it happens within a single issue as apart of the event he comes back in and its not explained how he came to the conclusion. It's a narrative roadblock because Dan never stopped to explain why. At best he lost his mind in the resurrection process, but even then Peter David comes in and says it's because his soul (a thing outside of his control and explained outside CC) got broken. But that also doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that he was "hand waved" as crazy, plain and simple. He's back and he's a bad guy because he's nuts. Nothing supported that in universe either which is pretty much why the soul thing worked to a limited degree.

Ben was basically setup all wrong and if the wheels started turning earlier it might've worked out a bit better for the character. Having him appear earlier and build up to the reveal it was him would've gone a long way into establishing him as a villain.

There’s nothing that would’ve worked with Ben becoming a villain. It’s an unworkable, insulting concept that flies in the face of everything that defines the character. There’s no way it could’ve worked, even if it was handled better. Kaine becoming a hero works because it’s an organic “redemption arc.” And Kaine was never truly bad even in the 90s. He had a moral code, but he was just misguided and manipulated.

[Pav]

I've enjoyed the interplay between the brothers with their long history. One thing we haven't seen in Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider...where art thou Hummingbird? She's missed.

I’d like to see her, but I’d also like to see Janine, Jessica, Jimmy-6 and The Daily Grind crew. I have a feeling PAD didn’t read much of the clone saga before writing Scarlet Spider. And that’s fine. But I want the next writer who takes on Ben and Kaine to do a deep dive on their forgotten back stories and supporting characters.

I don't think it's that people can't accept it, it's that for what came out of it the book did not have the setup to warrant it. With Kaine you could follow the logic of it because he was a misguided villain, anti-hero, and even warned Peter and saved him from Kraven's family. Then when he came back he still wasn't crazy about being a hero, but did so anyways and slowly developed into one. It didn't happen over night as far as the comics themselves go. But Kaine could be heroic and still the villain, in his own book he's sent to assassinate Wolverine. Sure it doesn't work, but he still briefly killed him. Kaine is about as much a hero as The Punisher, so while he's a heroic figure, he could at least as far as morality goes remain flexible.

Whereas with Ben it happens within a single issue as apart of the event he comes back in and its not explained how he came to the conclusion. It's a narrative roadblock because Dan never stopped to explain why. At best he lost his mind in the resurrection process, but even then Peter David comes in and says it's because his soul (a thing outside of his control and explained outside CC) got broken. But that also doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that he was "hand waved" as crazy, plain and simple. He's back and he's a bad guy because he's nuts. Nothing supported that in universe either which is pretty much why the soul thing worked to a limited degree.

Ben was basically setup all wrong and if the wheels started turning earlier it might've worked out a bit better for the character. Having him appear earlier and build up to the reveal it was him would've gone a long way into establishing him as a villain.

I disagree that Ben's motivation wasn't clearly explained - it seemed very obvious as a result of his trauma at the hands of the Jackal, but I do think it could have been made more apparent, and I definitely agree that building up his character as the Jackal over more time would've likely done wonders for the story.

I guess, in general I can see what Dan was going for and, even if the execution wasn't great, I liked the idea -- plus I'm just kind of a forgiving reader, I think.

Anyway, as I've said already, I hope there's someone chomping at the bit to continue the story of Ben and Kaine, and I hope Marvel gives them the opportunity.

-Pav, who hopes we get more of the existentialist questions that first enticed him back in the 90s...