Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2018

[HypnoHustler]

I pretty much agree with you both. I've always been a guy who believed the best comic writers used continuity and character histories to strengthen the current stories being told. Kaine and Ben have plenty of history to be mined, and while I don't want a simple rehash of past stories, or characters brought back just because, I do want our Scarlet Spiders to have a supporting cast that matter, just as Peter's supporting cast matter.

Certain characters may not fit their world anymore - I'm thinking of the Daily Grind cast - but certainly there are more stories to tell with Elizabeth Tyne, Jessica, Jimmy-6, Joystick, D'Spayre, and of course Hummingbird. I am of the belief that, often, a comic fails not because the hero isn't interesting, but because his or her world isn't interesting; a lack of supporting cast and compelling villains is a death sentence, in my mind. For Ben and Kaine to survive, writers must populate their stories with other characters we care about, and all the better if we've seen them in past stories.

Maybe you're right about The Daily Grind not fitting in anymore, but how cool would it be for Ben to wander back into the DG and surprise the crap out of everyone? They all saw him die after all. That's assuming the DG is even still in business.... it's probably a Starbucks now.

-Pav, who did like PAD's Las Vegas cast even if they weren't fleshed out beyond basic archetypes...

Sorry, but I disagree. I think the Las Vegas cast is very boring and uncharismatic. When "Diva" or Aunt June or the dying kid (still forget her name, but she should be called MacGuffin) appear, I almost want to skip the pages to just get back to more Ben and Kaine. The supporting cast is not one of the book's strong suits. I like Dusk hanging around though.

And is Ben just forgetting and forgiving the fact that Slate killed a kid in #3?! It's never brought up anymore and now he routinely teams up with Ben and Kaine. The series can't end without Ben taking him out.

[Pav]

There’s nothing that would’ve worked with Ben becoming a villain. It’s an unworkable, insulting concept that flies in the face of everything that defines the character. There’s no way it could’ve worked, even if it was handled better. Kaine becoming a hero works because it’s an organic “redemption arc.” And Kaine was never truly bad even in the 90s. He had a moral code, but he was just misguided and manipulated.

I pride myself as being as big a fan of Ben as anyone in the world, and I don't find it insulting at all - especially the way it was done, with Ben traumatized by the Jackal.

You say that Kaine was never "truly bad," just misguided and manipulated. Why is it that Kaine's trauma protects him from being villified, but Ben's doesn't? Both were tortured and abused: the only difference is when that trauma happened in their lives.

I understand the idea that "the old Ben" was a hero, but to deny him the ability to react accordingly to trauma is to deny him a realistic personality.

To me, this overly emotional response to Ben's changes essentially mean "I don't like the changes and you better change him back how I liked him." There's nothing wrong with liking a certain portrayal of a character, but to insist that a concept is unworkable and insulting seems inherently wrong, and to me, illustrates the stubbornness that too many fans seem to hold in regards to the stories they read. While Ben's comic wasn't perfect, I allowed myself to enjoy it because I wanted to enjoy it, warts and all.

-Pav, who still sees the old Ben in the new issues...

[Pav]

Maybe you're right about The Daily Grind not fitting in anymore, but how cool would it be for Ben to wander back into the DG and surprise the crap out of everyone? They all saw him die after all. That's assuming the DG is even still in business.... it's probably a Starbucks now.



Sorry, but I disagree. I think the Las Vegas cast is very boring and uncharismatic. When "Diva" or Aunt June or the dying kid (still forget her name, but she should be called MacGuffin) appear, I almost want to skip the pages to just get back to more Ben and Kaine. The supporting cast is not one of the book's strong suits. I like Dusk hanging around though.

And is Ben just forgetting and forgiving the fact that Slate killed a kid in #3?! It's never brought up anymore and now he routinely teams up with Ben and Kaine. The series can't end without Ben taking him out.

Keep in mind that I merely said I liked them, not that they were brilliant characters, so there's no reason to disagree. I even said I liked them despite not being fully-fleshed out. Again, it's probably just me liking the concept of Ben in Las Vegas, even if the execution wasn't always great. I can see what PAD was going for, and I can see why the idea itself is intriguing: putting this traumatized and lost Ben in a world full of "grey" characters makes total sense to me.

As for Ben forgetting about the kid Slate killed, I chalk that up to PAD just not having his heart into the series, which is pure conjecture on my part, as well as the changes in direction the book took.

Dusk and the other Slingers being brought back was one of the highlights for me, as well. Ben had solid rapport with both Ricochet and Dusk, and seeing them together was a dream come true, even if they felt tacked on and not particularly integral to the book.

-Pav, who focuses on the good and tries to ignore the bad...

[boots]

i think that existentialism along with ben being a hero ， despite all his traumas in the 90s is what worked for me then. having him succumb to them and somewhat gloss over the fact made him less compelling for me.

and kaine was a murderous monster in the 90s. i don’t begrudge him his development since, but let’s not forget he was a monstrous shade of peter while ben represented all that was indomitable about him

again though, that artwork is grand

[Pav]

i think that existentialism along with ben being a hero ， despite all his traumas in the 90s is what worked for me then. having him succumb to them and somewhat gloss over the fact made him less compelling for me.

and kaine was a murderous monster in the 90s. i don’t begrudge him his development since, but let’s not forget he was a monstrous shade of peter while ben represented all that was indomitable about him

again though, that artwork is grand

I agree wholeheartedly, boots.

My mindset when reading comics is this: these bumps along the road - like Ben succumbing to trauma, which many people see as a mistake made by the writers - will hopefully become blips in the history of the character, adding nuance and depth as future writers take what they've been given and add to it.

At least, that's the hope.

-Pav, who will be on pins and needles waiting for Scarlet Spider news over the next few months...

[boots]

i’m definitely not of the “ruined forever” mindset. i still look forward to what can be done with him

and if more people had responded positively to his current status quo, i would’ve been fine with that too. he’s not my character, i don’t own him

but i do feel like his return could have been a lot more successful

[Spiderfang]

One of the figures in the Marvel Legends Vintage Wave 2 is 90's Scarlet Spider with a Ben Reilly headswap

[Diamond]

Maybe you're right about The Daily Grind not fitting in anymore, but how cool would it be for Ben to wander back into the DG and surprise the crap out of everyone? They all saw him die after all. That's assuming the DG is even still in business.... it's probably a Starbucks now.



Sorry, but I disagree. I think the Las Vegas cast is very boring and uncharismatic. When "Diva" or Aunt June or the dying kid (still forget her name, but she should be called MacGuffin) appear, I almost want to skip the pages to just get back to more Ben and Kaine. The supporting cast is not one of the book's strong suits. I like Dusk hanging around though.

And is Ben just forgetting and forgiving the fact that Slate killed a kid in #3?! It's never brought up anymore and now he routinely teams up with Ben and Kaine. The series can't end without Ben taking him out.

I pride myself as being as big a fan of Ben as anyone in the world, and I don't find it insulting at all - especially the way it was done, with Ben traumatized by the Jackal.

You say that Kaine was never "truly bad," just misguided and manipulated. Why is it that Kaine's trauma protects him from being villified, but Ben's doesn't? Both were tortured and abused: the only difference is when that trauma happened in their lives.

I understand the idea that "the old Ben" was a hero, but to deny him the ability to react accordingly to trauma is to deny him a realistic personality.

To me, this overly emotional response to Ben's changes essentially mean "I don't like the changes and you better change him back how I liked him." There's nothing wrong with liking a certain portrayal of a character, but to insist that a concept is unworkable and insulting seems inherently wrong, and to me, illustrates the stubbornness that too many fans seem to hold in regards to the stories they read. While Ben's comic wasn't perfect, I allowed myself to enjoy it because I wanted to enjoy it, warts and all.

-Pav, who still sees the old Ben in the new issues...

I think it's more likely that PAD did not have the space to develop further Ben and Slate's relationships. We may get a call back to Slate's killing the kid by the end of the series.

[classicgmer]

You say that Kaine was never "truly bad," just misguided and manipulated. Why is it that Kaine's trauma protects him from being villified, but Ben's doesn't? Both were tortured and abused: the only difference is when that trauma happened in their lives.

I can't speak for HypnoHustler but I think the big difference is that Kaine chose to try & be a better person with his second chance while Ben chose to be a dickhead with his. Kaine still has the trauma from what the Jackal did to him as well as dealing with the fact that he did a lot of horrible things to people who didn't deserve it but he's still trying.


Ben is trying to be better but lets be honest it wasn't until after Lady Death paid him a visit and scared the crap out of him that he's been incentivized to be a better person.

[HypnoHustler]

I can't speak for HypnoHustler but I think the big difference is that Kaine chose to try & be a better person with his second chance while Ben chose to be a dickhead with his. Kaine still has the trauma from what the Jackal did to him as well as dealing with the fact that he did a lot of horrible things to people who didn't deserve it but he's still trying.


Ben is trying to be better but lets be honest it wasn't until after Lady Death paid him a visit and scared the crap out of him that he's been incentivized to be a better person.

I think you did a good job summarizing my feelings as well. That’s what I was trying to get at. In my experience, people usually become better over their lives as they get older and more mature and learn from previous mistakes. Not worse. And Kaine’s evolution was a lot more organic as well.

[Huntsman Spider]

I can't speak for HypnoHustler but I think the big difference is that Kaine chose to try & be a better person with his second chance while Ben chose to be a dickhead with his. Kaine still has the trauma from what the Jackal did to him as well as dealing with the fact that he did a lot of horrible things to people who didn't deserve it but he's still trying.


Ben is trying to be better but lets be honest it wasn't until after Lady Death paid him a visit and scared the crap out of him that he's been incentivized to be a better person.

Excellent parallel and contrast between the Scarlet Spiders there. I should mention, though, that when the chips were down, Ben was willing to be taken by Mistress Death in place of both Kaine and Abigail, which showed that he wasn't completely beyond redemption despite the severity of his own past sins. Come to think of it, that was also where Kaine started to redeem himself, by being willing to selflessly give his life for the sake of his "brother" Peter back in Grim Hunt. I guess self-sacrifice is the turning point for both Ben and Kaine in their paths to redemption, and if the series is going to wrap up, I hope the last issue/arc is titled just that, "Redemption," as a callback to the miniseries by J.M. DeMatteis while Ben was still Spider-Man that was supposed to end with them burying the proverbial hatchet.

[HypnoHustler]

Excellent parallel and contrast between the Scarlet Spiders there. I should mention, though, that when the chips were down, Ben was willing to be taken by Mistress Death in place of both Kaine and Abigail, which showed that he wasn't completely beyond redemption despite the severity of his own past sins. Come to think of it, that was also where Kaine started to redeem himself, by being willing to selflessly give his life for the sake of his "brother" Peter back in Grim Hunt. I guess self-sacrifice is the turning point for both Ben and Kaine in their paths to redemption, and if the series is going to wrap up, I hope the last issue/arc is titled just that, "Redemption," as a callback to the miniseries by J.M. DeMatteis while Ben was still Spider-Man that was supposed to end with them burying the proverbial hatchet.

That would be great. But I’m not sure PAD even knows about the Redemption mini. Hopefully he does. It’s one of the most underrated gems out there.

[Digifiend]

I pretty much agree with you both. I've always been a guy who believed the best comic writers used continuity and character histories to strengthen the current stories being told. Kaine and Ben have plenty of history to be mined, and while I don't want a simple rehash of past stories, or characters brought back just because, I do want our Scarlet Spiders to have a supporting cast that matter, just as Peter's supporting cast matter.

Certain characters may not fit their world anymore - I'm thinking of the Daily Grind cast - but certainly there are more stories to tell with Elizabeth Tyne, Jessica, Jimmy-6, Joystick, D'Spayre, and of course Hummingbird. I am of the belief that, often, a comic fails not because the hero isn't interesting, but because his or her world isn't interesting; a lack of supporting cast and compelling villains is a death sentence, in my mind. For Ben and Kaine to survive, writers must populate their stories with other characters we care about, and all the better if we've seen them in past stories.

-Pav, who did like PAD's Las Vegas cast even if they weren't fleshed out beyond basic archetypes...

Well, the Grind probably no longer exists. I can imagine it would've been taken over by Starbucks or Costa Coffee.

[HypnoHustler]

Well, the Grind probably no longer exists. I can imagine it would've been taken over by Starbucks or Costa Coffee.

I made that same joke earlier. It’d be fun if Ben found out the hard way though.

[classicgmer]

That would be great. But I’m not sure PAD even knows about the Redemption mini. Hopefully he does. It’s one of the most underrated gems out there.

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say he probably doesn't remember it...PAD is no doubt a competent writer & will do a serviceable to good job on just about anything but he doesn't really strike me as being overly enthusiastic or invested in Ben Reilly as a character the way he seemed to be with Jamie Madrox & the rest of his X-Factor characters.



I know some people might consider it to be a little nitpicky but I still can't believe we're probably going to get through the whole series without Ben using Impact Webbing or Stingers

It's not a something that's offensive to me or anything but Marvel constantly told us about how he was too similar to Peter and now that they bring him back, give him his own series and old costume they don't bother to have him use the two tools that are unique to him.