Dragons survive to a modern age

[Captain Smith]

There are various dragons in books and media. They have difference intelligences and abilities. For example, there are Chinese dragons that take on human form and inhabit a modern world variant. However, I'm interested in those that are in reptilian form and what would happen to them in a modern age.

For example:

1. The rather animalistic ones like in the GOT.
2. The intelligent ones like Smaugh
3. The ones in Novik's books like Temeraire. They were intelligent - with various abilities, good mathematicians. They were determinants of military power in a sailing ship of the line world but starting to come up against firearms and cannons.
4. The dumb dragons of the Gate anime and Stross's Laundry Books - didn't fare well against fighter planes.
5. Midkemia dragons - highly intelligent, shape shifter, magicians, FTL and dimensional travel

How would they influence the world if they existed in modern times? I'm interested in #3 and wished Novik would have a book with her world continuing to our times. What about if the GOT, Smaugh types were still around? Don't want the Midkemia ones around though.

[Sharpandpointies]

Assuming our modern age looks pretty much like it does now, the only dragons that survive (and run the planet) are the Midkemia dragons.

Smaug and his ilk, for all of their intelligence, just get killed off by governments using high-tech military hardware. The only dragon in Tolkien's writing that would be a serious threat in the modern age would be Ancalagon, and even he would die - eventually, after, causing all kinds of problems (cities destroyed, probably in the multiples, before they managed to catch him with enough ordnance, or maybe a couple of nukes).

We can talk about them taking on jobs as advisors and such, but humanity has a Very Poor™ track record dealing with non-human beings (and even other humans), so I don't see the dragons surviving. There just aren't enough of them to fight back, either, if things get nasty.

[Jackalope89]

Assuming our modern age looks pretty much like it does now, the only dragons that survive (and run the planet) are the Midkemia dragons.

Smaug and his ilk, for all of their intelligence, just get killed off by governments using high-tech military hardware. The only dragon in Tolkien's writing that would be a serious threat in the modern age would be Ancalagon, and even he would die - eventually, after, causing all kinds of problems (cities destroyed, probably in the multiples, before they managed to catch him with enough ordnance, or maybe a couple of nukes).

We can talk about them taking on jobs as advisors and such, but humanity has a Very Poor™ track record dealing with non-human beings (and even other humans), so I don't see the dragons surviving. There just aren't enough of them to fight back, either, if things get nasty.

The Temeraire Dragons literally live alongside humans. Some cultures more than others. They're an air force (and more, depending on the culture) millennia before man powered flight is invented.

[MichaelC]

Smaug and the like are inherently evil, so if some plot-device allowed them to survive to the modern age, they'd have to learn to hide how evil they are, especially how greedy they are. I could see Smaug, once he realizes that technology is reaching a level where humans will easily be able to kill him, adjusting by becoming a businessman. He's ageless, so he'd have plenty of time to transition from someone who spends a bit of his gold on things like the East India Company, to an outright CEO who runs his business from his lair. I can picture him sitting on his pile of gold with with a viewscreen in front of him, hearing reports and giving orders.


As comical as that image is, I could really see Smaug doing it, but only if he survives that middle period when human technology starts to improve, but isn't yet obviously at a level where it would be a danger to him. There's going to be a period around the Age of Enlightenment when his arrogance will make it hard for him to accept that he has to learn subtlety to survive much longer. If he makes it past that period, perhaps by sheer luck, then yeah I could see Smaug up there with Bezos and Musk.

[Sharpandpointies]

The Temeraire Dragons literally live alongside humans. Some cultures more than others. They're an air force (and more, depending on the culture) millennia before man powered flight is invented.

My post is predicated around 'military and society as it is right now', ie we have dragons in our modern age. At which point I feel that the dragons get the axe, because humans, they are not so accepting.

If we're saying 'that civilization from the novels reaches modern age' as the OP wishes for from the author, things might be different.

Smaug and the like are inherently evil, so if some plot-device allowed them to survive to the modern age, they'd have to learn to hide how evil they are, especially how greedy they are. I could see Smaug, once he realizes that technology is reaching a level where humans will easily be able to kill him, adjusting by becoming a businessman. He's ageless, so he'd have plenty of time to transition from someone who spends a bit of his gold on things like the East India Company, to an outright CEO who runs his business from his lair. I can picture him sitting on his pile of gold with with a viewscreen in front of him, hearing reports and giving orders.

As comical as that image is, I could really see Smaug doing it, but only if he survives that middle period when human technology starts to improve, but isn't yet obviously at a level where it would be a danger to him. There's going to be a period around the Age of Enlightenment when his arrogance will make it hard for him to accept that he has to learn subtlety to survive much longer. If he makes it past that period, perhaps by sheer luck, then yeah I could see Smaug up there with Bezos and Musk.

The problem is that Smaug will eventually be found out in the modern era, either by his own vast ego or by the fact that humans pry. Someone, somewhere, will hack into his stuff if he makes it to the modern age, he'll get exposed, and that'll be the end of him.

[MichaelC]

My post is predicated around 'military and society as it is right now', ie we have dragons in our modern age. At which point I feel that the dragons get the axe, because humans, they are not so accepting.

If we're saying 'that civilization from the novels reaches modern age' as the OP wishes for from the author, things might be different.



The problem is that Smaug will eventually be found out in the modern era, either by his own vast ego or by the fact that humans pry. Someone, somewhere, will hack into his stuff if he makes it to the modern age, he'll get exposed, and that'll be the end of him.

But, but the image of Smaug in a business suit is so much fun!
"My tie is like ten Armani suits! My business card is solid gold! My stock portfolio IS ALL DIVIDEND KINGS! And my balance sheet...FLAWLESS!! Wellll, where are your questions now, SEC investigator????"

Come on, wouldn't you rather see Smaug in something like "The Wolf Of Wallstreet" rather than Leonardo DiCaprio?

[Jackalope89]

My post is predicated around 'military and society as it is right now', ie we have dragons in our modern age. At which point I feel that the dragons get the axe, because humans, they are not so accepting.

If we're saying 'that civilization from the novels reaches modern age' as the OP wishes for from the author, things might be different.



The problem is that Smaug will eventually be found out in the modern era, either by his own vast ego or by the fact that humans pry. Someone, somewhere, will hack into his stuff if he makes it to the modern age, he'll get exposed, and that'll be the end of him.

Temeraire is set during the Napoleonic Wars. With dragons coming in all shapes and sizes. In Europe, viewed primarily as military assets. But in China and the Far East, some can be as high ranking and respected as the Imperial Family. In South Africa, many are treated as reincarnated family members. Their sizes range from that of horses, to being mistaken for a hill in some cases. And that's not even counting the water dragons.

In Temeraire, throughout the world, dragons are already incorporated into human society. Some moreso than others, with big social pushes by the end of the series. And the dragons' intelligences range as widely as humans. Some are...slow. While others can see a mathematical equation, and push it to new limits, discovering new portents of science.

So, maybe Temeraire should be taken out for this scenario, as it is about dragons having long since be acclimated into human society, and thus how their presence (physically and intelligently) change the world. To take it out, and shove it back in, simply would not work for this setting.

[Shellhead]

We can talk about them taking on jobs as advisors and such, but humanity has a Very Poor™ track record dealing with non-human beings (and even other humans), so I don't see the dragons surviving. There just aren't enough of them to fight back, either, if things get nasty.

I agree completely. Right now, there are grown men freaking out because Disney made a live-action movie about a black mermaid. As a species, we can't even handle minor variations in skin color in our own kind, so there is no way that we would be able to peacefully share a planet with big, highly sentient lizards. We would be obsessed with killing them. Some of us would protest and try to live in peace with the dragons, but the majority would freak out and try to kill them. If there is intelligent life on other planets, I hope that we don't meet them unless we manage to some day rise above our violent xenophobia.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, considering his size, his death alone would flatten a not inconsiderable portion of the world; IIRC wasn't the world much bigger than this one?

Specific to old RushingJaws, his death took out Thangorodrim, three mountains larger than Everest that were pretty close together. Whether he fell on them and mashed them flat or writhed around and collapsed them IS open to debate, but that’s the top-end of his death.

Certainly it contributed to Beleriand sinking, but it was only one tussle of a multi-decade-long war that saw enough power being tossed around that even the first battle of it ‘broke the land’ where it was fought (where Morgoth’s forces first try to hold a line against the Army of the West, insert Captain Kirrahe gif here). And that was before the balrogs, the winged dragons, Eärendil and his Main Reflex Silmaril, etc.

And based on the size of Beleriand as compared to Númenor, it’s not like North America sank.

My head canon is also that he can't be killed without a laser taped to the forehead of someone riding on the hood of a minivan with Great Eagle decals.

Head-Canon-wise, I cannot argue.

I agree completely. Right now, there are grown men freaking out because Disney made a live-action movie about a black mermaid. As a species, we can't even handle minor variations in skin color in our own kind, so there is no way that we would be able to peacefully share a planet with big, highly sentient lizards. We would be obsessed with killing them. Some of us would protest and try to live in peace with the dragons, but the majority would freak out and try to kill them. If there is intelligent life on other planets, I hope that we don't meet them unless we manage to some day rise above our violent xenophobia.

Interesting that I was considering that exact same sad and woeful example (among waaaaay too many others to feel comfortable about our unhinged species) when I wrote what you quoted.

I maintain that somewhere in the Oort Cloud is a string of buoys set up by some alien race constantly broadcasting a warning to not contact the residents of this system, because they are viciously homicidal.

[Captain Smith]

Eventually, the interstellar pest control firm will come by.

Back to the point, I'll suggest that the Novick dragons are so well integrated across their world that they would survive and maybe prosper in some. The Asian, South American, North American Dragons and African dragons seemed to fit. The British ones seem to on the verge of a dragons rights movement. The Eastern European dragons are enslaved. One can imagine if they learn of the roles in other countries, we can see defections.

A GOT dragon today, might land in some zoo. Hard to catch but might be bred for captivity. They would have no utility, except for some obscure uses, such as elephants are used in chores in places where machinery has a hard time.

We certainly don't need a Valheru on one of their dragons around here. That combo can planet smash.

[big_adventure]

Any of the dragons outside of Midkemia will eventually get killed. The Midkemia dragons are more than capable of just remaining hidden if they don't want to fight, or to easily win any fight we want to bring to them. Easy teleportation means we can't nuke them, and none of our conventional weapons are going to scratch them.

Ancalgon would be a pain, but enough MOABs or a single tactical nuke and he's done. He isn't that fast and can't teleport, shapeshift or dimension hop, so he's going to be instantly and easily detectable anywhere in the world once Earth knows he's there. And they will, because it's not like he's capable of resisting firing off an attack or two.

[Little_Mac]

I agree completely. Right now, there are grown men freaking out because Disney made a live-action movie about a black mermaid. As a species, we can't even handle minor variations in skin color in our own kind, so there is no way that we would be able to peacefully share a planet with big, highly sentient lizards. We would be obsessed with killing them. Some of us would protest and try to live in peace with the dragons, but the majority would freak out and try to kill them. If there is intelligent life on other planets, I hope that we don't meet them unless we manage to some day rise above our violent xenophobia.

I think that it would be the North American mindset. I don't necessarily think that it would be the same on the other side of the world. I could easily see several cults and religions form in China/Japan/Thailand over the reintroduction of dragons. It's easy to see the dragons get worshipped, studied, in power, etc.

I think that I also could see those countries close off their access to the dragons after a few successful assassinations from the West. I foresee more of the return to the Cold War in this scenario. The West definitely would want to kill them. The East, I'm not so sure.

[big_adventure]

I think that it would be the North American mindset. I don't necessarily think that it would be the same on the other side of the world. I could easily see several cults and religions form in China/Japan/Thailand over the reintroduction of dragons. It's easy to see the dragons get worshipped, studied, in power, etc.

I think that I also could see those countries close off their access to the dragons after a few successful assassinations from the West. I foresee more of the return to the Cold War in this scenario. The West definitely would want to kill them. The East, I'm not so sure.

Not many (if any) of the dragons in the scenario would be willing to be neutral even, much less the slaves they'd be required to be to be accepted by the "East" as you put it.