Huntress (Helena Wayne) Appreciation Thread < NOTE: Not Bertinelli >

[D.Z]

Earth 2 probably was the original plan, but Geoff decided to stick with Hypertime to link up with his current works.

[Will Evans]

Too bad they just didn't go with JSA on Earth 2. JSA loses some status when it has to operate in the shadow of the JLA.

It worked for me from 1995-2010

[CaptCleghorn]

Too bad they just didn't go with JSA on Earth 2. JSA loses some status when it has to operate in the shadow of the JLA.

If you're talking about the nu52 Earth 2 book, I think that group resembles the JLA a lot more than the clutterEarth version. The big similarity is the age and experience level, as well as the lack of generational characters. The JSA is the team with 80 years of experience, dealing with their adult children and a literal second generation of heroes and villains. Now a JSA with those factors on an Earth 2 resembling the original concept from the Silver Age is something I'd love to see and that could be a great setting for a series.

[MajorHoy]

Too bad they just didn't go with JSA on Earth 2. JSA loses some status when it has to operate in the shadow of the JLA.

It worked for me from 1995-2010

Huh?

Wasn't the JSA was pretty much taken out of the picture between 1994 and 1998 (courtesy of Zero Hour) . . .

[Dataweaver]

My suspicion is that she will turn out to be from the original Earth 2 — which Johns will say is in Hypertime. He appears to have a different notion of what Hypertime than the “graveyard of worlds” idea that The Button suggested. Rather, I think he's viewing it as the home of the archival Earths that he introduced in Doomsday Clock. Which, if you'll recall, included an Earth 2. Which I don't think he's distinguishing from the pre-Crisis Earth 2.

Remember, this is the same person who brought back the original Legion of Superheroes, and the original Power Girl. I have no doubt in my mind that his intent here is to bring back the original Huntress.

[Dataweaver]

Anyway, my reason for visiting this thread was to comment on the Batman/Catwoman Helena. She is from a future timeline that has just diverged from the mainstream timeline, where the point of divergence was the successful marriage of Bruce and Selina. Doomsday Clock has a little blurb in it about, after the Time Masters crisis, Superman going on a search for Batman's daughter, so that she can save his son. If the upcoming JSA Huntress turns out to be temporary (which I think is unlikely, but not impossible), I wouldn't mind if this upcoming New Golden Age / Time Masters thing gets followed up with Superman finding his way into the BatCatverse and bringing that Helena back to the present of the mainstream.

[D.Z]

Fixed
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[bat39]

Ha!

One thing that DC so often seemed to do so much better than Marvel at, back in the 80s, was their legacy characters. The introduction of Earth 2 Batman's daughter with Catwoman, Dick Grayson 'graduating' himself from Robin to Nightwing, Wally West taking on the mantle of Flash after Barry's sacrifice during Crisis. There was some great stuff going on, and it took Marvel a long time to start movement on some legacy characters like Cassie Lang or 'sidekicks allowed to grow up' like Bucky Barnes themselves.

Where Helena really was a breath of fresh air is her existence suggested that Earth 2 Batman wasn't as Frank Miller would have portrayed him, broken down and doomed to die alone, a bitter old recluse, drinking away his wine cellar in a musty old mansion. He could somehow have some semblance of a healthy happy ending and build the sort of family that was stolen from him so long ago. Comics serial nature kind of dooms most heroes to never really 'win.' Any villain who is even remotely threatening or interesting will be back again and again, more dangerous than ever. Every month there will be a new threat. Retirement is not an option. Passing the torch is not an option. And then there was Helena Wayne, upending the endless misery-porn and angst with a promise that it could end, and end well. There *was* something worth fighting for, in the end, Batman wasn't doomed to continue fighting monsters until he could see nothing else and became a monster in turn.

Well, Earth 2 Batman's life wasn't bereft of tragedy. Yes, he got his 'happy ending' for a while...but eventually his wife is murdered leading him to give up the cowl in grief and rage, only to put it on again for one last mission that leads to his death at the hands of a random criminal who got lucky with some mystical artifact.

But that apart, you're right that its certainly a far less bleak take on Batman and his legacy than what Frank Miller (and so many other creators) envisioned. But it's in keeping with the spirit of the Golden Age/Silver Age Batman - a guy who spent his life 'warring against all criminals' but who often did so with a smile, and never let the darkness overwhelm him or beat him down. And honestly, this is broadly how I prefer to see Batman as well! DKR is a classic and I love it, but it's not necessarily my ideal endpoint for the character.

My suspicion is that she will turn out to be from the original Earth 2 — which Johns will say is in Hypertime. He appears to have a different notion of what Hypertime than the “graveyard of worlds” idea that The Button suggested. Rather, I think he's viewing it as the home of the archival Earths that he introduced in Doomsday Clock. Which, if you'll recall, included an Earth 2. Which I don't think he's distinguishing from the pre-Crisis Earth 2.

Remember, this is the same person who brought back the original Legion of Superheroes, and the original Power Girl. I have no doubt in my mind that his intent here is to bring back the original Huntress.

Yeah, I have no doubt it's the original Huntress, no matter what the mechanics of bringing her back are.

I haven't really followed a lot of the recent continuity-shifting stuff outside of this forum. But my understanding from Doomsday Clock is that Hypertime and the Multiverse are distinct but interrelated concepts. When it comes to the Golden Age DCU in particular, Doomsday Clock establishes it as a past timeline/reality/incarnation of the main DC earth aka the Metaverse aka Earth 0 as it's called today. The creation of the Speed Force apparently altered the Metaverse's reality, transforming the Golden Age DCU into the Silver Age DCU. At the same time, a new parallel earth i.e. Earth 2, was spawned in the Multiverse that was essentially a 'backup' of the now-erased Golden Age DCU timeline.

What does this mean in light of all the continuity shifts that have happened with COIE and beyond? Well, here's how I see it - Earth 2 got merged back into the main DC earth/Metaverse during COIE. Retroactively speaking, this was a 'homecoming' for the Golden Age DCU and most of its heroes. However the Earth 2 doppelgangers of Superman, Batman etc. were erased from this new history of the Metaverse. But even though there was no longer the old infinite Multiverse, Hypertime was still a way to access all past and possible timelines of the Metaverse - and logically this would include the Golden Age DCU/Earth 2 as well (either because it was the original incarnation of the Metaverse, or because Earth 2 was incorporated back into the Metaverse during COIE). Alex Luthor presumably was able to tap into this during IC to temporarily resurrect Earth 2 (as well as infinite other earths). And the new Multiverses that have been around since 52, with their own versions of Earth 2, presumably also worked off this 'ghost' template of Earth 2 that is inherent in the Metaverse and possibly accessible through Hypertime.

So when it comes to Helena, there are a few options:

1. This Helena has been plucked from Hypertime, from an erased timeline/alternate timeline of the Metaverse/Earth 0 that represents the Golden Age DCU and/or Earth 2.

2. This Helena is literally the one who died in COIE on the newly-merged earth. A bunch of timeline shifts have happened to the Metaverse since then, but somehow, through Hypertime, Helena's corpse has been retrieved and resurrected.

3. The original Pre-COIE Multiverse has returned in Dark COIE (or so I've heard) and its possible that Earth 2 (or a version of it) is back as well, with Helena recreated there. And she then travels to Earth 0.

I honestly think any of these are possible, or some variation of them.

[D.Z]

Could be she gets plucked before her death on Earth. Or from another Hyper timeline where Earth 2 wasn't merged. Or Johns decides to have her from some other timeline that is actually Earth 0 similar but the Earth 2 charcters weren't replaced.

Still the orginal Earth 2 universe ceased to be reality wise. And what was left was folden in the post crisis DCU.

[OBrianTallent]

Fixed
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That would be absolutely perfect!

[Restingvoice]

My suspicion is that she will turn out to be from the original Earth 2 — which Johns will say is in Hypertime. He appears to have a different notion of what Hypertime than the “graveyard of worlds” idea that The Button suggested. Rather, I think he's viewing it as the home of the archival Earths that he introduced in Doomsday Clock. Which, if you'll recall, included an Earth 2. Which I don't think he's distinguishing from the pre-Crisis Earth 2.

Remember, this is the same person who brought back the original Legion of Superheroes, and the original Power Girl. I have no doubt in my mind that his intent here is to bring back the original Huntress.

If Hypertime now range to Pre-Crisis there will be a timeline where Earth 2 didn't suffer from Crisis on Infinite Earths
Maybe the one where the Convergence team (Parallax and Alan) went back and supposed to prevent
Bat39 already mentioned the other possibilities

Time traveling before destroyed
Rescued from erasure in Earth-0
Crisis prevented by Convergence team
Crisis simply didn't happen in one timeline
Plucked from the Metaverse

[Dataweaver]

If Hypertime now range to Pre-Crisis there will be a timeline where Earth 2 didn't suffer from Crisis on Infinite Earths
Maybe the one where the Convergence team (Parallax and Alan) went back and supposed to prevent
Bat39 already mentioned the other possibilities

Time traveling before destroyed
Rescued from erasure in Earth-0
Crisis prevented by Convergence team
Crisis simply didn't happen in one timeline
Plucked from the Metaverse

Nitpick: the Convergence team was the Flag and Supergirl who were already destined to be part of the Crisis (and to die in it), plus Parallax from just before Zero Hour, and the Superman family from just before Flashpoint.

But yeah; I've thought of that. That particular stunt basically resulted in a Hypertimeline where the Antimonitor was defeated well before the battle at the Dawn of Time, with many more worlds surviving, and without the merger of worlds that originally took place. In particular, that Hypertimeline would include an Earth 2 that continued on, separate from Earth 1, with a Helena Wayne who never died in the Antimonitor's final assault.

And to complete the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff, say that this Hypertimeline's Multiverse is the one that Alex Luthor tapped into during Infinite Crisis, using its Earths as the templates for the Infinite Earths that he summoned. This would be what Telos is referring to at the end of Convergence when he says that the worlds of the Orrery are the worlds from the Multiverse that the Convergence team saved, but having evolved since then.

I'll also point out that, technically, there is no Helena Wayne in the history of the Metaverse to pluck from it: when Helena was first introduced in 1977, Earth 2 had already split from the Metaverse; and when Earth 2 got folded back into the Metaverse in CoIE, Helena in particular was explicitly not folded back in with it: in CoIE#11, she's the one complaining that this new, merged world doesn't have a place for her. All subsequent iterations of her, so far, have either come from alternate Earths (the JSI Earth or the New 52 Earth 2) or possible futures (Batman/Catwoman); not from the present or past of the mainstream Earth. So “plucked from the Metaverse” is unlikely.

I was even going to mention these ideas in the past of mine that you quoted; but I decided against it, because I don't see Johns doing that. Johns isn't much on complicated concepts; he prefers as much as possible to keep things simple. When he made the change to saying that Doctor Manhattan was responsible for Flashpoint, he didn't make up some complicated theory about how Jon's actions interrelated to Pandora's and Barry's actions; instead, he had Dr.M kill Pandora and never mentioned her again; and instead of having Dr.M have anything to do with the merging of three worlds to form the new Earth-Zero, Dr.M's change was no more than moving a lantern a few inches.

Johns isn't going to go with a complicated theory about how Helena Wayne survived; it will be something simple, and related to the Time Masters story he's setting up. Conceptually, she'll be from the original Earth 2, but will get mixed up with the time traveler who's going to be behind the trouble that the JSA will be confronting.

[D.Z]

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Boopy

[OBrianTallent]

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Boopy

Mike really can draw anyone. That's gorgeous.

[MajorHoy]

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Huh?