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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Catwoman has been depicted as black waaaaaaaaay back in the 1960s.

    It's funny how America has some become simultaneously more and less racist over time.
    No joke.

    10 characters.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    I don't feel it's problematic. Selina at inception was always a poor girl who did crimes. She was also white while being all that. It's not like they changed her race then changed her alignment and backstory a la Titans Tim Drake who once race bent also became a street kid with working class background.

    That is an example of a problematic race bend that reinforces negative stereotypes. it tells the reader that because Tim is now a POC his folks can't possibly be affluent. He can't be from the suburbs. He must now come from the streets.


    POC Selina is welcomed and beloved by readers of colour. Eartha Kitt as catwoman was inspirational to a ton of actresses of colour back in the day and she is still is today.

    Incels and bigots can think what they like. They are biased already so their POV isn't relevant here.

    Representation and diversity isn't about telling racists that look POC are neat. It's not about sanitised idealised portrayals of marginalised groups.

    It's about reflecting society and consumers.
    Ensuring that as many readers as possible feel included and visible in the media they consume.

    Rather than dwelling on what Bigots might be thinking, we should be considering how do women of colour feel about having a highly visible, well known character like Catwoman as a person of colour? They are the ones she's representing?


    When I think of Catwoman what comes to mind isn't a stereotype or a poor girl who became a cat burglar. I think a strong woman who is living her life by her own rules, one of the most popular female comic characters, Batman's lover and a sexy charismatic femme fatale.


    Also a few corrections.

    Catwoman isn't married to Bruce
    She isn't cheating. They are on a break
    Catwoman as a POC predates the Harley Show by decades
    That reminds me of how the “Drake” character in Batman 1989 was a Tim stand in and from the hood.
    I did think it was racist to make that change to his background with a race change.
    I think Selina works well as a black or biracial woman. She’s a strong character with many facets.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    In my head canon for the T.V. show, Julie Newmar and Eartha Kitt were two different Catwomen. They were each so different from the other in how they acted that I see them as two completely separate characters. Were either of them Selina Kyle? Maybe not. And what about Lee Meriwether from the movie--she went by another assumed name--could be a third Catwoman.

    I'm fine with Selina Kyle being a person of colour. In the old days, they made colouring mistakes all the time--and the number of colours they had for skin tones was very limited (and sometimes offensive).

    Because of the Catwoman movie in my headcanon Earth Kitt's Catwoman is Patience Phillips and Julie is Selina Kyle lol

  4. #19
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    Because of the Catwoman movie in my headcanon Earth Kitt's Catwoman is Patience Phillips and Julie is Selina Kyle lol
    What about Lee Merriweather?

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    What about Lee Merriweather?
    Miss Kitka

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    What about Lee Merriweather?
    ...Holly Robinson maybe
    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Miss Kitka
    I could actually see that being an alias for Selena when shes in Russia lol.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Is it problematic stereotyping? no.

    Nothing about Catwoman and her motivations were changed when she's black. Black characters can be burglars/villains/etc...

    And as pointed out by others...none of this started with HQ so...more research by some is needed

  8. #23
    Darling, please. emfrst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    I don't feel it's problematic. Selina at inception was always a poor girl who did crimes. She was also white while being all that. It's not like they changed her race then changed her alignment and backstory a la Titans Tim Drake who once race bent also became a street kid with working class background.

    That is an example of a problematic race bend that reinforces negative stereotypes. it tells the reader that because Tim is now a POC his folks can't possibly be affluent. He can't be from the suburbs. He must now come from the streets.


    POC Selina is welcomed and beloved by readers of colour. Eartha Kitt as catwoman was inspirational to a ton of actresses of colour back in the day and she is still is today.

    Incels and bigots can think what they like. They are biased already so their POV isn't relevant here.

    Representation and diversity isn't about telling racists that look POC are neat. It's not about sanitised idealised portrayals of marginalised groups.

    It's about reflecting society and consumers.
    Ensuring that as many readers as possible feel included and visible in the media they consume.

    Rather than dwelling on what Bigots might be thinking, we should be considering how do women of colour feel about having a highly visible, well known character like Catwoman as a person of colour? They are the ones she's representing?


    When I think of Catwoman what comes to mind isn't a stereotype or a poor girl who became a cat burglar. I think a strong woman who is living her life by her own rules, one of the most popular female comic characters, Batman's lover and a sexy charismatic femme fatale.


    Also a few corrections.

    Catwoman isn't married to Bruce
    She isn't cheating. They are on a break
    Catwoman as a POC predates the Harley Show by decades

    Didn't catwoman really marry bruce at the end of Tom King's run, & then they decided to live separately after Alfred death, but still together?

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emfrst View Post
    Didn't catwoman really marry bruce at the end of Tom King's run, & then they decided to live separately after Alfred death, but still together?
    No. They decided that they didn't need to get married then they decided to live separately before they fizzled out.

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    We try not to talk about that...

  11. #26
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    Black and white races are social constructs that have no scientific basis any way. If these social constructs weren't created, there would be any stupid arguments about people being black and white in regards to anything. Human beings are far too diverse to be pinned down to color names. There is a highly great amount of diversity in Africa alone. Africans have the greatest genetic variation. Africa is an extremely diverse continent with over 2,000 ethnic groups. That includes Nigeria with over 400 ethnic groups. These social constructs of races were created out of ignorance. I stopped believing in the social constructs of the black and white races over 7 years ago.

    Race started as as a marker of kinship, but then we see it shift to become less about familial inheritance and more focused on physical indicators due to the rise of Enlightenment reasoning and labor exploitation.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxAlmAPHec&t=547s

    I have been into Genetic Genealogy since 2011. The more I read up on genetics of human populations, the more I am convinced that the social constructs of the black and white races are outdated and stupid.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3BIIIPlahw&t=413s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAWrwexw-To&t=671s

    Africans have more genetic variation than anyone else on Earth.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/african...tic-variation/



    I never believed in the one drop rule which is outdated, racist, and stupid. I even identified as multiracial/multiethnic for the last 3 US Censuses.

    According to a 2015 research study, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States:

    From 23andme database
    African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry.
    Latinos show average proportions of 65.1% European, 18.0% Native American, and 6.2% African ancestry
    European Americans show average proportions of 98.6% European, 0.19% African, and 0.18% Native American ancestry
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/

    BTW....All three live action Catwomen are significantly mixed African, European
    Eartha Kitt was the daughter of a European American man and African American woman
    Halle Berry was the daughter of an African American man and European American woman
    Both of Zoe Kravitz's parents are offspring of an African American parent and Ashkenazi Jewish American parent



    My 23andme Ancestry Composition shows that I am 49.7% African, 47.5% European, 1.7% Native American as well as 0.6% West Asian, 0.3% Chinese/Southeast Asian, 0.2% Unassigned

    parental inheritance derived from my DNA phasing between my mother's DNA and my DNA
    African: 43.4% is paternal, 6.3% is maternal
    European: 43.2% is maternal, 4.3% is paternal
    Native American: 1.0% is maternal, 0.7% is paternal
    West Asian: 0.6% is maternal
    Chinese/Southeast Asian: 0.3% is paternal
    Unassigned: 0.2% is maternal

    My haplogroup tests from FamilyTreeDNA show that my Y DNA haplogroup E-BY101982 which is an African haplogroup and that my Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is J1c14 which is a European haplogroup.


    My Genealogical Ancestry


    paternal grandfather: African American born in Louisiana

    paternal grandmother's father: African American born in Southern Louisiana

    other roots in Virginia, South Carolina, and Kentucky

    paternal grandmother's mother: African American with English and Acadian (French in what now known as Nova Scotia) born in Southern Louisiana

    colonial roots in Louisiana, Virginia, and North Carolina

    maternal grandfather's father: American born in California and son of immigrants from Cape Verde (Portuguese and African)

    maternal grandfather's mother: American born in California with a father from Puerto Rico (Spanish, African, and Taino) and mother that was Hawaiian born daughter of immigrants from Madeira (Portuguese with African)

    maternal grandmother's father: European American born in Oregon of mainly English ancestry with German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian

    colonial roots in Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island

    other roots in Missouri, Kansas, Alabama, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana

    maternal grandmother's mother: Ashkenazi Jewish American born in Nebraska with father immigrated from Romania and mother immigrated from Courland (in what is now known as Latvia) in Russian Empire
    Last edited by Starrius; 09-24-2022 at 11:03 PM.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire. It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson. This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    Black and white races are social constructs that have no scientific basis any way. If these social constructs weren't created, there would be any stupid arguments about people being black and white in regards to anything. Human beings are far too diverse to be pinned down to color names. There is a highly great amount of diversity in Africa alone. Africans have the greatest genetic variation. Africa is an extremely diverse continent with over 2,000 ethnic groups. That includes Nigeria with over 400 ethnic groups. These social constructs of races were created out of ignorance. I stopped believing in the social constructs of the black and white races over 7 years ago.

    Race started as as a marker of kinship, but then we see it shift to become less about familial inheritance and more focused on physical indicators due to the rise of Enlightenment reasoning and labor exploitation.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxAlmAPHec&t=547s

    I have been into Genetic Genealogy since 2011. The more I read up on genetics of human populations, the more I am convinced that the social constructs of the black and white races are outdated and stupid.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3BIIIPlahw&t=413s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAWrwexw-To&t=671s

    Africans have more genetic variation than anyone else on Earth.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/african...tic-variation/



    I never believed in the one drop rule which is outdated, racist, and stupid. I even identified as multiracial/multiethnic for the last 3 US Censuses.

    According to a 2015 research study, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States:

    From 23andme database
    African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry.
    Latinos show average proportions of 65.1% European, 18.0% Native American, and 6.2% African ancestry
    European Americans show average proportions of 98.6% European, 0.19% African, and 0.18% Native American ancestry
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/

    BTW....All three live action Catwomen are significantly mixed African, European
    Eartha Kitt was the daughter of a European American man and African American woman
    Halle Berry was the daughter of an African American man and European American woman
    Both of Zoe Kravitz's parents are offspring of an African American parent and Ashkenazi Jewish American parent



    My 23andme Ancestry Composition shows that I am 49.7% African, 47.5% European, 1.7% Native American as well as 0.6% West Asian, 0.3% Chinese/Southeast Asian, 0.2% Unassigned

    parental inheritance derived from my DNA phasing between my mother's DNA and my DNA
    African: 43.4% is paternal, 6.3% is maternal
    European: 43.2% is maternal, 4.3% is paternal
    Native American: 1.0% is maternal, 0.7% is paternal
    West Asian: 0.6% is maternal
    Chinese/Southeast Asian: 0.3% is paternal
    Unassigned: 0.2% is maternal

    My haplogroup tests from FamilyTreeDNA show that my Y DNA haplogroup E-BY101982 which is an African haplogroup and that my Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is J1c14 which is a European haplogroup.


    My Genealogical Ancestry


    paternal grandfather: African American born in Louisiana

    paternal grandmother's father: African American born in Southern Louisiana

    other roots in Virginia, South Carolina, and Kentucky

    paternal grandmother's mother: African American with English and Acadian (French in what now known as Nova Scotia) born in Southern Louisiana

    colonial roots in Louisiana, Virginia, and North Carolina

    maternal grandfather's father: American born in California and son of immigrants from Cape Verde (Portuguese and African)

    maternal grandfather's mother: American born in California with a father from Puerto Rico (Spanish, African, and Taino) and mother that was Hawaiian born daughter of immigrants from Madeira (Portuguese with African)

    maternal grandmother's father: European American born in Oregon of mainly English ancestry with German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian

    colonial roots in Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island

    other roots in Missouri, Kansas, Alabama, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana

    maternal grandmother's mother: Ashkenazi Jewish American born in Nebraska with father immigrated from Romania and mother immigrated from Courland (in what is now known as Latvia) in Russian Empire
    Race might be a social construct, but it also has social realities. And there is the weight of history behind these concepts too. So, while from a scientific, biological perspective (discounting racial or racist science-which is still out there too), race isn't, or shouldn't be a big deal, that's not how societies have been organized or the last several hundred years of history have gone. I don't think we can just handwave it away based on science, especially when the very idea of science (in some respects) is also still being debated or challenged.

  13. #28
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I feel like anyone thinking a black Selina Kyle is stereotyping is more of a personal problem.

    Is Deadshot being black in Suicide Squad stereotyping too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post

    These aren't the social science forums, brother.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    Black and white races are social constructs that have no scientific basis any way. If these social constructs weren't created, there would be any stupid arguments about people being black and white in regards to anything. Human beings are far too diverse to be pinned down to color names. There is a highly great amount of diversity in Africa alone. Africans have the greatest genetic variation. Africa is an extremely diverse continent with over 2,000 ethnic groups. That includes Nigeria with over 400 ethnic groups. These social constructs of races were created out of ignorance. I stopped believing in the social constructs of the black and white races over 7 years ago.

    Race started as as a marker of kinship, but then we see it shift to become less about familial inheritance and more focused on physical indicators due to the rise of Enlightenment reasoning and labor exploitation.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxAlmAPHec&t=547s

    I have been into Genetic Genealogy since 2011. The more I read up on genetics of human populations, the more I am convinced that the social constructs of the black and white races are outdated and stupid.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3BIIIPlahw&t=413s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAWrwexw-To&t=671s

    Africans have more genetic variation than anyone else on Earth.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/african...tic-variation/



    I never believed in the one drop rule which is outdated, racist, and stupid. I even identified as multiracial/multiethnic for the last 3 US Censuses.

    According to a 2015 research study, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States:

    From 23andme database
    African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry.
    Latinos show average proportions of 65.1% European, 18.0% Native American, and 6.2% African ancestry
    European Americans show average proportions of 98.6% European, 0.19% African, and 0.18% Native American ancestry
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/

    BTW....All three live action Catwomen are significantly mixed African, European
    Eartha Kitt was the daughter of a European American man and African American woman
    Halle Berry was the daughter of an African American man and European American woman
    Both of Zoe Kravitz's parents are offspring of an African American parent and Ashkenazi Jewish American parent



    My 23andme Ancestry Composition shows that I am 49.7% African, 47.5% European, 1.7% Native American as well as 0.6% West Asian, 0.3% Chinese/Southeast Asian, 0.2% Unassigned

    parental inheritance derived from my DNA phasing between my mother's DNA and my DNA
    African: 43.4% is paternal, 6.3% is maternal
    European: 43.2% is maternal, 4.3% is paternal
    Native American: 1.0% is maternal, 0.7% is paternal
    West Asian: 0.6% is maternal
    Chinese/Southeast Asian: 0.3% is paternal
    Unassigned: 0.2% is maternal

    My haplogroup tests from FamilyTreeDNA show that my Y DNA haplogroup E-BY101982 which is an African haplogroup and that my Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is J1c14 which is a European haplogroup.


    My Genealogical Ancestry


    paternal grandfather: African American born in Louisiana

    paternal grandmother's father: African American born in Southern Louisiana

    other roots in Virginia, South Carolina, and Kentucky

    paternal grandmother's mother: African American with English and Acadian (French in what now known as Nova Scotia) born in Southern Louisiana

    colonial roots in Louisiana, Virginia, and North Carolina

    maternal grandfather's father: American born in California and son of immigrants from Cape Verde (Portuguese and African)

    maternal grandfather's mother: American born in California with a father from Puerto Rico (Spanish, African, and Taino) and mother that was Hawaiian born daughter of immigrants from Madeira (Portuguese with African)

    maternal grandmother's father: European American born in Oregon of mainly English ancestry with German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian

    colonial roots in Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island

    other roots in Missouri, Kansas, Alabama, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana

    maternal grandmother's mother: Ashkenazi Jewish American born in Nebraska with father immigrated from Romania and mother immigrated from Courland (in what is now known as Latvia) in Russian Empire
    That's quite insightful. The world truly is a great big melting pot. We are all mixed regardless of the complexion is my take from all this. I've never had a DNa test [ancestry test] done.

    Wonder what I'll find.

    To answer OP, Selina being a person of colour isn't negative stereotyping. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone seriously complain about Selina being darker skinned.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Miss Kitka
    Didn't the Batman vs Two-Face movie imply that she was a former lawyer named Lucilee Diamond?
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