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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Well, I have to say, there's NO WAY I would accept the Celestial would have judged Peter "unworthy". Especially when Peter has another one who judge him with much more toughness everyday: himself.

    I have to say, however, Norman's reaction is not really a sign he's going to be evil again... yet. It was more like just a panic attack. Besides, as long as Norman's sins are still inside the clone of Dr Kafka, I don't see how Norman will be back to his old self.

    As for the short moment of Gwen and Peter meeting again, can we guess the Gwen from the Clone Conspiracy" was definitely not her? I mean, she shouldn't be surprised of Peter looking older if she remembered the events of "Clone Conspiracy", right? Anyway, the way she said Peter looked "older" proves my point: Marvel can't keep Peter Parker in the same status quo forever, so they have to leave him to develop; and the best way to do it is restoring the Spider-Marriage.
    By the parameters of the event, which Wells completely ignored, Peter should have failed because the Progenitor appears to judge people by the standards they hold for themselves. So Cap was judged by an avatar of himself in his original 1940s costume and failed because his standard is a mythical USA that is a beacon of hope and goodness in the world. Daredevil was judged by an avatar of Jesus Christ and failed for not living up to his faith.

    Cyclops, on the other hand, said only his wife could judge him and refused to be judged by the Progenitor; he passed. An avatar of Captain Marvel tried to tempt Kamala Khan (the real one, not whoever that person was in ASM) by saying she could save Kamala and her family by taking them into space; Kamala pounded the avatar into the ground and demanded to know what it did with the real Carol. She passed.

    Peter, by working with Norman, fails the real Gwen. And would have failed Uncle Ben, who by the parameters of the event should have been the avatar.

    I know there was a lot of gobbley-gook circular rationalizing done by Peter (Peter wanted to do something so rash/dangerous/illegal/immoral/bad no one would help him, so he asked Norman - but then he told the Progenitor he has to work with Norman so Norman won't do bad again to honor Gwen - but Peter, YOU asked Norman to help you with the bad thing you did! So if you don't want Norman to do bad...then why did you pull him into YOUR bad thing?! Yeah, right, you're doing this out of love for Gwen :rolleyes) but it's circular and doesn't track.

    And besides, only Norman is responsible for Norman's actions. It's really weird and not a little offputting for Wells to make Peter think his "responsibility" extends to exerting controlling over other people's choices and morals. It reminds me of Slott's "No one will die" vow, which was also stupid and irrational - Peter's not God, he has no control over whether people die or not - and I don't know why the BND writers default to this bizarre characterization of Peter believing it is his place to play deity with other people's agency.

    Couple that with Wells turning Peter into someone who refuses to hold others responsible for the harm they caused - he let Tombstone walk free even though he knows Tombstone mass murdered the Crime Master's Men, he basically pats Vulture on the head despite all the property damage he caused, and then he tells JJJ in this issue it's okay he created the Scorpion and the Spider-Slayers because JJJ is a good guy and his intentions have always been pure which is very much not true, and also negates all of JJJ's character development - and I fail to understand why people praise Wells's Peter as to me he doesn't understand the first thing about Peter Parker. Wells mistakes responsibility for unthinking forgiveness and turning a blind eye to others' transgressions - if Wells had written Amazing Fantasy 15, it would have ended with Peter letting the Burglar go and telling him it's okay the Burglar shot Uncle Ben, Peter knows the Burglar's intentions were good so Peter is going to let the Burglar off with a warning to play more nicely next time.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; Yesterday at 03:32 PM.

  2. #152
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    It kind of reminds me of the end of Geoff Johns run on Green Lantern when Hal is fight Sinestro and tells Sin that he is trying to save him.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post

    As for the short moment of Gwen and Peter meeting again, can we guess the Gwen from the Clone Conspiracy" was definitely not her? I mean, she shouldn't be surprised of Peter looking older if she remembered the events of "Clone Conspiracy", right? Anyway, the way she said Peter looked "older" proves my point: Marvel can't keep Peter Parker in the same status quo forever, so they have to leave him to develop; and the best way to do it is restoring the Spider-Marriage.
    Iíve been thinking on this. Marvel is basically stick adamantly to what they perceive to be an age problem. The thing is though the characters surrounding Peter are ageing up and it either highlights how much Peter has been stunted or has highlighted they have no idea what to do with him.

    How long does it take before Miles is basically the same age as Peter or do you slow his character growth to serve Peter because he canít get too old canít enter a relationship long term canít do anything really.

  4. #154
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    By the parameters of the event, which Wells completely ignored, Peter should have failed because the Progenitor appears to judge people by the standards they hold for themselves. So Cap was judged by an avatar of himself in his original 1940s costume and failed because his standard is a mythical USA that is a beacon of hope and goodness in the world. Daredevil was judged by an avatar of Jesus Christ and failed for not living up to his faith.
    The event itself makes this a bit weird because Doom passed, when the Celestial doesn't seem to like evil people, since Shawn didn't pass despite being well aware of how much of a piece of shit he is.

    It's also odd that he made Xavier fail when Xavier was protecting mutants from a telepathic attack, just because he ignored Legion, he was really busy at the moment lol.

    Considering he does character judgement, and expects people to do better, some cases where he accepts or fails someone are rather questionable and even arbitrary, and that happens with Gillen written stuff too.

    Ironically this is probably the clearest that a Celestial has been, since they usually don't even talk or bother caring to let people know why they do stuff.

    Anyways, that aside, what I saw of Spidey in the first issue, he really shouldn't pass with what the main comic of Judgement showed... Nor should he be rewarded if that's really a thing the Celestial did, which he doesn't do to anyone else, why Spidey is an exception is bizarre lol.

    Cyclops, on the other hand, said only his wife could judge him and refused to be judged by the Progenitor; he passed.
    Refusing to be judged isn't too relevant, Destiny also refused and she didn't pass.

    If we get bitchy about details, he accepted the judgement but doesn't recognize the Celestial's authority, which, can basically mean the same thing, but hey, bitchy about details lol:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...23/unknown.png

    I think Cyke passes because he's still following his own morals, to the point he does stuff without the Quiet Council's approval because he feels it's the right thing to do.

    None of this is stated though, so maybe I'm making a headcanon, but X-Men#14 vol 6 was written by Duggan, same guy who made Cyke be more of a rebel against the Quiet Council's nonsense, so it makes sense, but again, not stated, he just passed.

    Peter, by working with Norman, fails the real Gwen. And would have failed Uncle Ben, who by the parameters of the event should have been the avatar.
    The avatars chosen can be rather arbitrary, Shawn in Immortal X-Men#6 got Emma, even though his father would be more fitting (and Shawn points it out too, saying he doesn't respect Emma), Cage got a random irrelevant reporter in AXE#4 instead of someone of importance to him (Though it likely happened because he's mayor now), the Celestial showed up as himself instead of Reed when judging Doom.

    So yeah, both Gwen and Ben are fitting.

    I think it'd be funny if he showed up as George, considering George's death is often forgotten, while out of universe the reason for that is because Gwen's death is way more iconic and happened only three years later, in-universe it looks like Spidey just didn't care that much about his death.

    I know there was a lot of gobbley-gook circular rationalizing done by Peter (Peter wanted to do something so rash/dangerous/illegal/immoral/bad no one would help him, so he asked Norman - but then he told the Progenitor he has to work with Norman so Norman won't do bad again to honor Gwen - but Peter, YOU asked Norman to help you with the bad thing you did! So if you don't want Norman to do bad...then why did you pull him into YOUR bad thing?! Yeah, right, you're doing this out of love for Gwen :rolleyes) but it's circular and doesn't track.
    The Celestial has also shown that he ignores excuses and and rationalizations, and calls out the character's actions and hypocrisies anyways:



    (Immortal X-Men#6).

    And besides, only Norman is responsible for Norman's actions. It's really weird and not a little offputting for Wells to make Peter think his "responsibility" extends to exerting controlling over other people's choices and morals. It reminds me of Slott's "No one will die" vow, which was also stupid and irrational - Peter's not God, he has no control over whether people die or not - and I don't know why the BND writers default to this bizarre characterization of Peter believing it is his place to play deity with other people's agency.
    At the latest that started slightly earlier, in OMD itself lol.

    Sensational Spider-Man#39 vol 2 right before it make it clear aunt May is okay with dying:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...78/unknown.png



    And then Spidey ignored her wishes and decides to resurrect her.

    Very responsible guy.

    Couple that with Wells turning Peter into someone who refuses to hold others responsible for the harm they caused - he let Tombstone walk free even though he knows Tombstone mass murdered the Crime Master's Men, he basically pats Vulture on the head despite all the property damage he caused, and then he tells JJJ in this issue it's okay he created the Scorpion and the Spider-Slayers because JJJ is a good guy and his intentions have always been pure which is very much not true, and also negates all of JJJ's character development - and I fail to understand why people praise Wells's Peter as to me he doesn't understand the first thing about Peter Parker. Wells mistakes responsibility for unthinking forgiveness and turning a blind eye to others' transgressions - if Wells had written Amazing Fantasy 15, it would have ended with Peter letting the Burglar go and telling him it's okay the Burglar shot Uncle Ben, Peter knows the Burglar's intentions were good so Peter is going to let the Burglar off with a warning to play more nicely next time.
    That seems to be like he views Spidey as a silver age super-hero in morality, which translates into an overtrusting idiot.

    If I'm right, it's even weirder to think of that when silver age heroes arrested villains when they did evil shit, or at least did something that would make the villain be butthurt at the end of the story, if Spidey is really letting villains go, man, it's the kind of dumbness that X-Men showed early in their career, specifically X-Men#9, when they let Lucifer (Not the devil) go, even though he just tried to nuke a planet:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...92/unknown.png



    (X-Men#9).

    Seeing him as a silver age character or not though, if Spidey's really letting villains go and being so forgiving of JJ's gross actions, it just doesn't work, Spidey is an emotional character, which doesn't mean he won't forgive, but he gets annoyed when people do bad things to him, to put it lightly, and letting villains go is really not something he does much, at best he does it when he believes someone deserves a second chance and is willing to change, but such situations are rare, and again, he has to believe the person deserves one, for situations like a kid commiting crimes because of bad influences, like it happened in Spectacular#310 (Zdarsky's last issue in that run).
    Last edited by Lukmendes; Yesterday at 09:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  5. #155
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dornwolf View Post
    I’ve been thinking on this. Marvel is basically stick adamantly to what they perceive to be an age problem. The thing is though the characters surrounding Peter are ageing up and it either highlights how much Peter has been stunted or has highlighted they have no idea what to do with him.

    How long does it take before Miles is basically the same age as Peter or do you slow his character growth to serve Peter because he can’t get too old can’t enter a relationship long term can’t do anything really.
    Ironically, it seems that Miles is growing at a pretty normal rate. I mean he started when he was 13 and now he's 17, almost 18. And ironically is WAY more mature than Peter is these days.

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