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  1. #526
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    @Randomsmarta55
    If you think that a person needs to earn the right to become Robin then you do not know anything about the mantle.

    I get why tim fans might feel that way but that isn't how Robin works.

    A normal child from a stable environment who had everything laid out for him on the right track. Tim didn't need the mantle but because he wanted it he had to go that extra mile. That's why Tim's story emphasised him working for it because otherwise it makes batman, Dick and Alfred look like monsters. What kind of people will put a teen into a battle field after having lost a far more skilled teen in the same battle?

    The answer is none. Tim's story emphasised him working hard to become Robin because they needed to convince the audience why batman and co would do something so abhorrent and out of character.

    It's not that Robin is a mantle one earns the right to become. It isn't. Any one who wants to help in the fight to make the world better is a valid candidate to be considered.

    Robin is a mantle that saves young people and puts them on a right path. A mantle that helps young people who want to help others make the world better. That's one thing every single Robin has in common. They were all trying to help, they all wanted to help.

    That's what Robins do. That's what they've always done. Put themselves in harms way for the safety of others. help others. That's was damian was doing prior to becoming Robin.

  2. #527
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Yeah the thing is the series keepings telling us this but not really explaining or showing things such as the whole changed perspectives or anything to justify what changed with Steph aside from "I'm bi" nor does it even hint at the "clean break". And true it started that way but it was made clear MANY times that their relationship was NOT based on their identities early on: https://incoherentbabblings.tumblr.c...ions-trying-to

    Also in Rebirth he was planning to quit fully from the Batfam while still being with Steph who would have been part of it so that "clean break" justification doesn't hold water at all as with Bernard he is still being a vigilante and thus tied to the Batfam as he is Robin.

    The thing is it's hard to things at face value when they don't properly explain things or flat out ignore history. The 'clean break' thing you said is never brought up or hinted at all (and already untrue) and we don't know why he was allegedly 'settling' for Steph which is also completely untrue at well and the 'same page' thing is also never hinted at.
    Well, what would you call the status quo of Tim apparently saying that Bernard is the first relationship he's had that's independent of the Bat, or however it was exactly put?

    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    I think you're giving the author WAY too much credit and justification to try make sense of something that really isn't that thought out or well-written on her and as everything you have been saying to try to justify the breakup has never been hinted at or addressed by the author. We can't accept things at face value simply becuse they are there if they are poorly explained.
    I think there's a difference between understanding the starting point that something is built on and assessing the story on those terms vs. liking a creative decision or thinking it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Using that logic we should have accepted Sins Past at face value despite it complete nonsense or just accept One More Day despite it being nonsense as well.
    I'll never like OMD, but I'd be an idiot to deny that all the comics set after it use it as part of the backstory. So, if I read anything from that era, I would feel obligated to try and meet the authors halfway and take the story on its own terms rather than just writing it off entirely because I hate the post-OMD status quo in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    The meta justification can only go so far and if it isn't supported by the actual story/good writing then people have a right to voice their complaints and say it's bad or otherwise we should just accept anything an author writes.
    I thought the "meta" approach was taking into account that these stories are written by authors who sometimes don't make things work, ignore previous works, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomSmartA55 View Post
    The thing is though, that settling thing would work better if Tim was gay, but he's not, he's bi. Being bi means you don't "settle" for either gender you fall in love with that person regardless of their gender because you are attracted to them or feel connected to them.
    Are we sure that "settling," in this case does refer to sexuality and not a personality clash or just realizing that after being with Bernard that he and Steph weren't as right for each other as it seemed in the mo

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomSmartA55 View Post
    The writing has not even begun to justify or prove why the hell Tim is attracted to this guy, he just is, for some inexplicable reason.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomSmartA55 View Post
    Another thing about being bi is the struggle of being in a hetero relationship and having to tell your significant other that you're also into the same sex. I've been in that situation several times, and have faced both acceptance and rejection. The face that we only saw Tim tell Stephanie AFTER they broke up is a problem, not to mention her reaction which is OOC and incredibly unrealistic. Yes I've had a girlfriend fine with me being bi, but I wasn't gonna introduce her to the guy I dated afterwards, we did meet by accident and it was incredibly awkward, not the best day ever!
    As I recall, the timetable was that Tim broke up with Steph before he discovered he was bisexual, much less that he wanted to date Bernard, so he couldn't have had the conversation in the first place. Agree that Steph's reaction to meeting her replacement didn't seem realistic at all (maybe a Pride issue was't the place to deal with a messy situation like this?).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  3. #528
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    I think the issue that we keep coming back to is that Stephanie and Tim broke up off-screen and even the Pride issue never made clear exactly what happened or why. The settling comment feels unearned as a result, regardless if it meant sexuality or personality, especially since most of Tim and Bernard's relationship also happened off-screen, making it a case of "show, don't tell".

    As for the timetable of when Tim figured out he was bi, it's again difficult to determine because of how much Fitzmartin skipped over when writing her first story and never really came back to.

    I guess a repeated problem with Fitzmartin is that her writing skips over a lot and only alludes to it as backstory at best. It's not helped by her lack of interest in focusing on these other characters beyond Tim and showing how their relationships with him change and develop, hence the Pride special. That makes some character decisions for Tim and the others feel less about character and more about plot.

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