No matter what the Marvel event is it seems that the Fantastic Four is barely affected...

[Maven]

I don't think it is a lineup shakeup that is needed...I think the pure and simple problem is that the FF need a GOOD BEYOND GOOD writer that can take a 'Back To Basics' approach with them, write the Core Four as they should be written by the textbook with no superficial 'personal' touches on behalf of the writer (such as unnecessary virtual 'rewritings' of characters' personalities and unnecessary retcons... *glares at Mark Millar and Matt Fraction*) AND the focus be back on THE Four and NOT everybody else BUT the Four. A grating problem with the book for at least me and I'm sure others, whether or not they are coming out and saying it, is that there has been and still is way, WAY too much of a fixation on the children and supporting casters like the Future Foundation kids instead of the Fantastic Four themselves. I've been saying time and again that the book's title honestly should be "The Franklin and Valeria Richards Show! Oh and Those Four Other People Too".

So you can finger the original FF all you want for poor sales, but it is honestly not their fault between the fact that they really have technically not 100% been in the spotlight in their own book for the last few years, had their comeback under Hickman ruined and some by Fraction and his terrible TERRIBLE (to say the least) interpretation, horrendous writing/handling of the Four through the last decade with two exceptions (Waid and Hickman), and Robinson trying to win back readers after they were turned off by Fraction's gobbledygook to the point of the worst sales in title history. If anything, finger Fraction for how he undermined Hickman's hard work in finally bringing the FF back to the fold...all the more reason I honestly (and very obviously) can't stand Fractoid.

The FF title has always had its best success with the Core Four...notably the Lee/Kirby run of course, Byrne of course as well, Simonson, Waid/Wieringo, and Hickman. Also there was out of left field minor success with the Wolfman (which didn't have the absolute best sales, but was and still is most certainly a critical success...not only said by many, including myself, to be up there with Lee/Kirby and Byrne as one of the greatest FF runs, but still sees reprint/graphic novel action time and again) and Lobdell (probably the bestselling short term run in FF history...a damn shame it didn't transcend three issues as it originally should have) runs. Every last one of those runs had the Core Four at their cruxes, and they all did well. All shakeups have been met with mixed reactions, often eventually leaning towards cries of wanting the Core Four back. Englehart and DeFalco's runs are PRIME examples of this. Englehart wrote his FF with the intention of Reed, Sue, and Franklin being permanently gone from the title...and the fan outcry immediately got to where Englehart had the nerve to 'voice' Sue in a pin-up (in FF Annual #21) saying 'she and Reed were amazed at some of the (then) recent letters!'.



It got to where Englehart was literally forced to bring the Richards family back, I.E. he was ridden out of the title on a rail by the fans AND Marvel...and, no I'm not afraid to say it now nor whenever this has been brought up, rightfully so.

But alas, DeFalco eventually came along...and rumor has held that if he'd had his way, Reed AND Doom's deaths would have been permanent. Thank Jove that did not stick. IIRC, the only reason such malarkey and the lineup shakeup caused by it happened was because DeFalco was not keen on writing Reed and Doom. Well, his 'back from 'death'' Reed was really not all that terrible, and dare I say, probably the most bada** Reed found himself being since the Byrne run. BUT, and yes, it's purely my opinion, but DeFalco's run was a step below mediocre with the Core Four, and the lineup shakeup (AND removal of Doom) really did not improve things much at all...a GREAT example of my grand argument that it's not the lineup, it's the writing, THE BLOODY WRITING.

Which, in conclusion, Robinson is certainly a massive improvement over Fraction, but at the same time, he's not Byrne or Hickman. They have been THE last scribes to have, to varying degrees, a virtual sixth sense as to what make the Four tick more above and beyond the others who have taken on the Fantastic challenge in the last decade. Yes, even Hickman despite my constant gripe about his ridiculous over-reliance on the chillins...but I'm much more willing to let bygones be bygones there because of how exquisitely well Hickman handled the Four when they were allowed their limelight (as well as give Reed the most positive spotlight he has seen since Byrne). But you can toot the shakeup horn all you want...it would only be a band-aid at best. What is really, REALLY needed is a miracle salve in a writer that has the said virtual sixth sense, has it in themselves to utilize timeless elements of the Lee/Kirby, Byrne, Wolfman, and Hickman periods and eras; and bring the title back around to where the Four are THE stars with the supporting casters not transcending their sideline roles and being ball hogs.

*literally bounces off of her Richards(TM) FantastiCleanser box and out of the room*

[Oberon]

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I was not totally hating of the Englehart years. It brought back Crystal (but that did not work out the way I would have wanted).
I liked Sharon/Ms. Marvel and the pathos it engendered. I liked the tie in with Inferno from the X-Men comics.
Defalco was also not the FF's worst moment to me, either. Sure we all knew Reed and Doom would come back. Okay, Hyperstorm was truly half-baked. The concept itself should have worked but it just did not. I liked some of the time/paradox hijinks, and if nothing else we got an extended look at what Franklin could turn out to be.

I liked it at the time, but can see why others did not. I would be dishonest to say that Paul Ryan's artwork at the time was a big factor in keeping my interest. Underrated, for some reason, but I really loved his style.

I echo you on Wolfman, he deserves a lot of credit for his stories. Was he the writer during the brief period when George Perez drew FF? I guess sometimes, a good or great artist can still pull the story together.

[Mark]

But aside from all of that is the fact that the MU is a very busy place full of Avengers and X-men and what place do the FF have in it? They aren't even fighting Doom anymore, he's a babysitter and the stuff Reed is doing in Avengers and his not telling Sue makes me hate the character even more then when he helped Tony create Clor and build 42. The current storyline is false to me, with the government suddenly deciding that Reed's stuff in the headquarters is dangers, this after he's had it there for at least ten years marvel time, grabbing his place and the kids, Johnny loosing his powers I can see, but Johnny just moping and having a party and not helping Sue and Reed get the kids back? In fact no one is helping them at all except Jen who's being written as a bad lawyer again. Add it all up and I just don't think that marvel considers publishing the FF anything more than a copywrite protection move.

[Colossus1980]

I always found it amusing when all the children in Marvel grow up to be either teen-agers or young adults while Franklin remains the same stunted boy.

[Myetche]

I always found it amusing when all the children in Marvel grow up to be either teen-agers or young adults while Franklin remains the same stunted boy.

Franklin is essentially a god among mortals. He's whatever he wants to be, and he apparently just wants to be a dopey little kid.

[MECHANO]

I love this about the FF... It is nice to have something constant in the Marvel U.

[Darth Phoenix]

I have been saying for year that the FF could use a break for a few years like Thor had. Have them lost in some other dimension for at least 2 or 3 years and the characters not used at all anywhere then bring the book back. It worked for Thor and it has worked for Steve Rogers and Tony Stark in the past too. Give the people a chance to miss the book and characters a little.

They should switch place with the future fantasic 4for a few years like Reed tries to fix a time paradox but that switches his whole baxter building with the family inside. Then for a few years we get a 20something year Franklin,Valerie,teen son or daughter of Black Panther,and grown Katie power with all her siblings powers at once. After 5 real years or so of thier adventures they fix time and when our real 4 return the kids could be early teens for better stories.

[Oberon]

I always found it amusing when all the children in Marvel grow up to be either teen-agers or young adults while Franklin remains the same stunted boy.

It has never been revealed as canon, but a favorite fan theory is that Franklin doesn't want to grow up, so he has stunted his growth or created this illusion and it also keeps everyone from seeing the truth as well (so the teenage Kitty Pryde who occasionally baby-sat Franklin is now a young adult, etc.)

I would take it further (perhaps too much) and suggest that Franklin keeps everyone at a more or less constant same age, with perhaps some children more than others (the above example of Shadowcat).

Again, no where in canon, but kind of creepy-cool.

As far as crazy theories go, perhaps there is something to letting the Ff comic fall to demise. Depending on contracts and loopholes, it might eventually get the movie property away from Fox and take it to Disney. I have no doubt that Marvel-Disney would finally deliver a movie all could love. But the time involved in this turnover takes away the rightful glow of what should be the FF's prominence as "first". Ronan should have been fighting the FF, before the Guardians. Adam Warlock's cocoon (seen on the Collector's ship at the end of Thorark World) should have opened in a FF movie.
But a Disney FF movie would also tie in quite nicely with the Inhumans movie that now seems to be go.

So many missed and therefore reinvented memes, that once belonged to Fantastic Four....

[Doomuniverse]

I always wondered why Mr. Sinister has never 100% went after Franklin Richards. It just doesn't make any sense!. He's one of the most brilliant characters anyway. .I would love to see how Reed tries to deal with him because Sinister never REALLY loses.

[JackDaw]

I doubt if we're ever going to see an extended run with a fully powered adult or even teenage Franklin.

The biggest (??) problem is his power set and levels. Once you have a fully powered mentally competent Franklin around most of the ongoing story lines become even dafter than usual...they all run up against question: "Why doesn't Franklin wish it better?"

[Master Planner]

I always wondered why Mr. Sinister has never 100% went after Franklin Richards. It just doesn't make any sense!. He's one of the most brilliant characters anyway. .I would love to see how Reed tries to deal with him because Sinister never REALLY loses.

That would be a nice storyline.In fact,Franklin being a mutant is a nice way to use x-villains to give some fresh stories.The only X-villain who wanted Franklin was Onslaught.Sinister seems to be the next logical choice,considering his backround as evil scientist.

[TakoM]

I doubt if we're ever going to see an extended run with a fully powered adult or even teenage Franklin.

The biggest (??) problem is his power set and levels. Once you have a fully powered mentally competent Franklin around most of the ongoing story lines become even dafter than usual...they all run up against question: "Why doesn't Franklin wish it better?"

Like Rick Jones who has supposedly create the Avengers in the Earth-X story?
or like Jean Grey with the phoenix force which sit in the hot with room?
or like Adam Warlock when he had the infinity gauntlet?
or like the guy in a FF story which had cosmic powers which he even not realised?
or like Galacta ?
or like X-man when he had still is powers and could foresee the future(where he is who know?)?

Yeah Franklin can't work as a heroes but as something as cosmic guardian who only do thinks when he really has to I think he works and like you see there were and is a lot of those people.

[Darth Phoenix]

[QUOTE=Doomuniverse;484465]I always wondered why Mr. Sinister has never 100% went after Franklin Richards. He would just make a hybrid with Rachel Grey. lol

[Darth Phoenix]

I always wondered why Mr. Sinister has never 100% went after Franklin Richards. It just doesn't make any sense!. He's one of the most brilliant characters anyway. .I would love to see how Reed tries to deal with him because Sinister never REALLY loses.

WOW why did I never wonder that or the High Evolutionary Franklin be a big deal to him as well.

[Cmbmool]

I always wondered why Mr. Sinister has never 100% went after Franklin Richards. It just doesn't make any sense!. He's one of the most brilliant characters anyway. .I would love to see how Reed tries to deal with him because Sinister never REALLY loses.

I'm surprised no one at Marvel thought of that idea yet.