Was Spiderman defeating Firelord controversial?

[evolutionaryFan]

I vaguely remember this being considered controversial or bad writing... This was regular Spiderman (black suit was Black Cat's not the alien symbiote)

Considering Spidey's lifting power 20 tons... Firelord 50 tons. (it isn't the staggering difference you'd find between characters in DC). With Spidey's speed advantage, it doesn't seem that far fetched at all. Especially with all the success Spidey has had against Titania.

[Lukmendes]

Firelord was used as a measuring stick and he was around Thor's level, and it's why Jean was allowed to have a draw with him too, Spidey is way below a comic level of power to defeat someone like that, specially since all he did was "hit Firelord a lot".

It's even worse that the story points out and shows that Firelord is very strong and way above Spidey's power, and Spidey wins anyways, just, by hitting him a lot... I see that as **** writing, and it gets even worse when a few years later, Venom ouclasses Spidey ridiculously lol.

Also Spidey is supposed to be at 10 tons, even if it's questionable considering he has lifted way heavier than that (Like a tank), but the strength ranking was never consistent lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

I vaguely remember this being considered controversial or bad writing... This was regular Spiderman (black suit was Black Cat's not the alien symbiote)

Considering Spidey's lifting power 20 tons... Firelord 50 tons. (it isn't the staggering difference you'd find between characters in DC). With Spidey's speed advantage, it doesn't seem that far fetched at all. Especially with all the success Spidey has had against Titania.

Firelord was used as a measuring stick and he was around Thor's level, and it's why Jean was allowed to have a draw with him too, Spidey is way below a comic level of power to defeat someone like that, specially since all he did was "hit Firelord a lot".

It's even worse that the story points out and shows that Firelord is very strong and way above Spidey's power, and Spidey wins anyways, just, by hitting him a lot... I see that as **** writing, and it gets even worse when a few years later, Venom ouclasses Spidey ridiculously lol.

Also Spidey is supposed to be at 10 tons, even if it's questionable considering he has lifted way heavier than that (Like a tank), but the strength ranking was never consistent lol.

Technically, Spider-Man hit Firelord a lot while using his speed, reflexes, and spider-sense to keep darting out of Firelord's reach and then darting back in to hit him, so Firelord couldn't mount an adequate counterattack. That said, I do see your point, given Firelord's flame projection powers --- unless he somehow exhausted himself there trying to get Spider-Man and could only do physical attacks.

[Lukmendes]

Technically, Spider-Man hit Firelord a lot while using his speed, reflexes, and spider-sense to keep darting out of Firelord's reach and then darting back in to hit him, so Firelord couldn't mount an adequate counterattack. That said, I do see your point, given Firelord's flame projection powers --- unless he somehow exhausted himself there trying to get Spider-Man and could only do physical attacks.

Even if he for some reason couldn't hit Spidey, and he's for some reason too stupid to just fly away, Spidey's own punches shouldn't hit hard enough to knock down a being as strong as Firelord lol.

It doesn't help that Spidey only really fights him for one page, while the fight against Titania for comparison has a few more pages and we get to actually see her trying and failing to hit him while he hits her, and once Spidey stars hitting Firelord, it's just this:



So a building's implosion and a gas station's explosion don't even scratch him, but some Spider-Guy hitting him really hard is enough to knock him down? Give me a break lol.

[Mister Mets]

I don't know how it was received at the time, but it's certainly controversial now. I think it works in the comic, but there's an argument that it goes against the ethos of Marvel where might doesn't always make right, and the good guys don't always win, at least not by power alone. One of the best examples of this was Daredevil #7, where he fights Namor and gets his ass handed to him. However, he's able to impress Namor enough to get him to call off an attack.

[HypnoHustler]

The Firelord story is a classic two-parter (or was it one issue? I don’t have it on hand… thought it had a cliffhanger though). I wouldn’t say top 10, but I’ve seen it in some top 30 and top 20 lists before. On the surface perhaps it doesn’t make a lot of sense that Spidey’s barrage of punches took out Firelord, but the dude had just had a building brought down on him and been blown up in a gas station so he was probably in a weakened state. I can overlook it because it’s an engaging and fun story. I like Brian Cronin’s article about it, even though he also concedes the climatic fight was a bit unbalanced. https://www.cbr.com/the-wrong-side-s...n-vs-firelord/

But what’s more unrealistic? That fight, or the numerous times a supposedly “normal” human like the Kingpin has beat the crap out of Spidey? Even an incredibly strong human like Kingpin should only be able to lift 500 pounds or so. No match for Spidey’s power set of 10-20 tons mentioned in this thread. However, the depictions of Kingpin pummeling the wall-crawler look cool and that’s good enough for me sometimes.

EDIT: Also one advantage the issue mentions that no one in this thread has*, is Spidey’s spider-sense. From the panels it looks like Firelord isn’t able to land one punch, while Spidey lands hundreds. Sometimes agility and speed matter more than brute strength.

(*- my apologies to Huntsman Spider who did mention this)

EDIT 2: And it’s been a while since I read it, but didn’t Spidey essentially take down Juggarnaut in the same way in the Roger Stern storyline from a few years previous? Don’t know Juggy’s power level, but there’s at least precedence for Spidey’s berserker rage compensating for a lack of raw power.

[Username taken]

Spider-man shouldn't have been able to beat Firelord. However, Spider-man (particularly in the 1980s and 90s) fought guys more powerful than him and punked them.

As Spider-man's popularity soared so did his abilities apparently.

I mean, Spider-man beat people like Titania, Firelord and almost completely punked out the X-men. Heck, he nearly knocked out Eric Masterson's Thor.

Spider-man "was that guy" back in the day.

[HypnoHustler]

Spider-man shouldn't have been able to beat Firelord. However, Spider-man (particularly in the 1980s and 90s) fought guys more powerful than him and punked them.

As Spider-man's popularity soared so did his abilities apparently.

I mean, Spider-man beat people like Titania, Firelord and almost completely punked out the X-men. Heck, he nearly knocked out Eric Masterson's Thor.

Spider-man "was that guy" back in the day.

I’ll take that over now, when he gets beaten up far more often than wins a fight… and often needs teenage sidekicks to save his butt.

[Alan2099]

I think it's one of those things that Wizard Magazine latched onto and kept repeating as being wrong and people just latched onto it. I don't think anybody really had problems with it at the time.

[Jman27]

Spider-man shouldn't have been able to beat Firelord. However, Spider-man (particularly in the 1980s and 90s) fought guys more powerful than him and punked them.

As Spider-man's popularity soared so did his abilities apparently.

I mean, Spider-man beat people like Titania, Firelord and almost completely punked out the X-men. Heck, he nearly knocked out Eric Masterson's Thor.

Spider-man "was that guy" back in the day.

i want him back I want to be there in his prime when he was top tier

[Lukmendes]

The Firelord story is a classic two-parter (or was it one issue? I don’t have it on hand… thought it had a cliffhanger though). I wouldn’t say top 10, but I’ve seen it in some top 30 and top 20 lists before. On the surface perhaps it doesn’t make a lot of sense that Spidey’s barrage of punches took out Firelord, but the dude had just had a building brought down on him and been blown up in a gas station so he was probably in a weakened state. I can overlook it because it’s an engaging and fun story. I like Brian Cronin’s article about it, even though he also concedes the climatic fight was a bit unbalanced. https://www.cbr.com/the-wrong-side-s...n-vs-firelord/

Firelord wasn't tired at all, the gas station's explosion did no damage to him to the point he only pretended to have fainted so he could trick Spidey lol.

But what’s more unrealistic? That fight, or the numerous times a supposedly “normal” human like the Kingpin has beat the crap out of Spidey? Even an incredibly strong human like Kingpin should only be able to lift 500 pounds or so. No match for Spidey’s power set of 10-20 tons mentioned in this thread. However, the depictions of Kingpin pummeling the wall-crawler look cool and that’s good enough for me sometimes.

Situations like this make no damn sense too, specially situations where someone on Daredevil's strength can beat Spidey lol.

EDIT: Also one advantage the issue mentions that no one in this thread has*, is Spidey’s spider-sense. From the panels it looks like Firelord isn’t able to land one punch, while Spidey lands hundreds. Sometimes agility and speed matter more than brute strength.

(*- my apologies to Huntsman Spider who did mention this)

All that it does is make him not get hit, but it doesn't suddenly make him hit harder.

EDIT 2: And it’s been a while since I read it, but didn’t Spidey essentially take down Juggarnaut in the same way in the Roger Stern storyline from a few years previous? Don’t know Juggy’s power level, but there’s at least precedence for Spidey’s berserker rage compensating for a lack of raw power.

Spidey defeated Juggernaut by him stepping on cement and sinking, the story made it clear Spidey didn't even manage to scratch Juggernaut.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the Juggernaut story was made in Stern's run, when he tried to remember everyone just how strong someone like Spidey is (Once in a while you can see villains commenting on that, a fight with Hobgoblin even had him thinking "****, Spider-Man is too strong I have to escape!"), and yet he still made Spidey be incapable of defeating Juggernaut.

i want him back I want to be there in his prime when he was top tier

Unlikely to happen with the current editorial.

Hell even if it did happen, it might happen in a "wrong" way, current super-hero fights feel way more arbitrary about who wins than before, and the fights themselves being meh looking doesn't help...

[Lee]

It's a David versus Goliath story where David wins by punching Goliath.

[Morgoth]

To be honest, I don't even pay attention to this sort of things. I mean, Sinister Six defeated Avengers (including Thor and Hulk) in Slott's run, Joker defeated and brainwashed Justice League, and after that they were defeated by Batman in Snyder's run. All these comparisons of characters in terms of strength, who can defeat whom, never made much sense, because it all depends solely on the writer, as well as the popularity of the character.

[HypnoHustler]

All this talk makes me want to reread those Firelord issues. I remember enjoying them (as I enjoyed most of DeFalco’s 80s run) and I haven’t read them in at least a decade if not longer.

[Webhead]

It made no sense but it was a cool visual.

Like Hypno said, Kingpin absolutely demolishes Spidey in the early era, and that didn't make sense either, but it made for good stories.

It seems these days writers have it easier to tell the scale of threats anyway, what with the handbooks and whatnot.