Was Spiderman defeating Firelord controversial?

[boots]

The problem is that there are odds that you can't beat just because you're 1% more determined than everyone else, specially in such a half assed way.

I see the appeal of such things, but it reaches bad writing territory a lot just because "Muh underdog beat impossible odds", and it's ridiculous for something like that to happen against someone who outclasses Spidey as badly as Firelord does.

sure, mileage varies with suspension of disbelief.

again, for me themes are more important. there's a lot of stories in today's market where your determination % doesn't matter in the face of odds (game of thrones) but stories (especially kids ones) where the opposite is explored are ok too. it mattered when i read it as a kid, it might have less impact on me as a... mostly... mature adult.

something like the superheroes fighting thanos in the infinity gauntlet was filled with all levels of bullshit (even with the clever device of needing to win death's approval) that i find forgivable because of the moments it gave us.

a cop watching a procedural on tv or doctor watching a medical drama probably need to compartmentalise in a similar way. i still remember a medical advisor on a tv show informing everyone that what the dr does in this scene would kill the patient not save them but the show went ahead with the unrealistic version. for the drama.

He had two bronze age issues to do it, that is a lot of pages he could've used, instead of the one page beatdown that got Spidey the win, so that ain't a good excuse.

it's not an excuse, just a reality of the job. thinking back over it, i don't know if sacrificing any of the prior story beats for expanding spidey's win adds much? i'd have to reread.

there's also the way sequential art functions: the one panel where spidey "explodes into action raining blow after blow" is up to the reader to interpret time-wise and with what nuance. it depends on how active the read is or how charitable (how biased or uninformed we believe the povs on the building's effect on firelord was etc). maybe i'm on the more charitable side?

I mean, Spidey has defeated Juggernaut (ASM#229 and #230) and Thunderball (ASM#247 and #248), characters who completely outclass him in power, in ways that are more satisfying while the story makes sure to show that they're powerful and way above his weight class (And I'm pretty sure you can make a case about Thunderball being nerfed anyways, but at least he needed a big way to be defeated), by comparison with those, his victory over Firelord is poorly written and really, really lazy.

Also this made me find out that the fight against Thunderball was written by Stern too, figures lol.

is this fight the best example of overcoming the odds through ingenuity or circumstance? clearly not. i can see why a lot of people would feel that the writer doesn't stick the landing after what is a pretty interesting premise and build up.

the theme defalco presents here is as on the nose as anything he does, but i can accept the depiction of firelord dying the death of a thousand cuts to spidey's unwillingness to give in.

[Lukmendes]

sure, mileage varies with suspension of disbelief.

again, for me themes are more important. there's a lot of stories in today's market where your determination % doesn't matter in the face of odds (game of thrones) but stories (especially kids ones) where the opposite is explored are ok too. it mattered when i read it as a kid, it might have less impact on me as a... mostly... mature adult.

I don't buy into this "It's for kids so we can do bad writing" nonsense.

something like the superheroes fighting thanos in the infinity gauntlet was filled with all levels of bullshit (even with the clever device of needing to win death's approval) that i find forgivable because of the moments it gave us.

a cop watching a procedural on tv or doctor watching a medical drama probably need to compartmentalise in a similar way. i still remember a medical advisor on a tv show informing everyone that what the dr does in this scene would kill the patient not save them but the show went ahead with the unrealistic version. for the drama.

I mean the ridiculous amount of poor research in these shows have their own fair share of problems too lol.

it's not an excuse, just a reality of the job. thinking back over it, i don't know if sacrificing any of the prior story beats for expanding spidey's win adds much? i'd have to reread.

It still sounds like an excuse, he has two issues to do this, and Stern even did similar stories before, having it all end in one page just because Spidey thought "**** it" is ridiculous.

there's also the way sequential art functions: the one panel where spidey "explodes into action raining blow after blow" is up to the reader to interpret time-wise and with what nuance. it depends on how active the read is or how charitable (how biased or uninformed we believe the povs on the building's effect on firelord was etc). maybe i'm on the more charitable side?

I mean, the story says Spidey dodged Firelord's counter attempts, and the art only showed him attacking, so that was poorly done too.

Even then, the panels below make it clear that once Spidey starts talking, Firelord is barely fighting back, if at all.

is this fight the best example of overcoming the odds through ingenuity or circumstance? clearly not. i can see why a lot of people would feel that the writer doesn't stick the landing after what is a pretty interesting premise and build up.

the theme defalco presents here is as on the nose as anything he does, but i can accept the depiction of firelord dying the death of a thousand cuts to spidey's unwillingness to give in.

I mean, the story itself presented Firelord as way above his level, and then Spidey just wins, that's bad writing even with some half assed theme of "Spidey is kinda determined I guess".

It'd be the equivalent of a tank that shrugs everything that is thrown at it, and then it runs into a tree, which makes the tank explode, and the moral lesson is to not drive drunk.

[boots]

I don't buy into this "It's for kids so we can do bad writing" nonsense.

not quite what i said.

I mean the ridiculous amount of poor research in these shows have their own fair share of problems too lol.

also, not what was said. the research is clearly there. choices are made for what is considered more interesting or important.

It still sounds like an excuse, he has two issues to do this, and Stern even did similar stories before, having it all end in one page just because Spidey thought "**** it" is ridiculous.

i suppose removing context and nuance does make it easier to attack something.

I mean, the story itself presented Firelord as way above his level, and then Spidey just wins, that's bad writing even with some half assed theme of "Spidey is kinda determined I guess".

It'd be the equivalent of a tank that shrugs everything that is thrown at it, and then it runs into a tree, which makes the tank explode, and the moral lesson is to not drive drunk.

interesting equivalence to draw.

in any case, i don't think any of your gripes are without merit. there's a spectrum to these things.

[Lukmendes]

not quite what i said.

Felt like it was implied with the kids bit being mentioned lol.

i suppose removing context and nuance does make it easier to attack something.

Hah.

How am I removing context and nuance? I made it clear what happened in the story, I pointed out how Spidey's attempts of throwing big stuff at Firelord all failed and didn't even scratch the guy, I pointed out what the text says is going on, and on publication side, he has two issues to tell this story, most of the second issue was the fight against Firelord since the first issue did all of the setup, number of pages is what DeFalco didn't lack.

I understand what the story is going for, I'm just not going to pretend that I find it okay for the ending to suck that much because DeFalco wanted a theme in some half assed story about some Spider-Guy being determined, specially if you keep previous issues in mind with similar fights that had way better results.

[boots]

Felt like it was implied with the kids bit being mentioned lol.

sure, and there's entire words and sentences surrounding the mention of kids that provide the context. but to be clear; "bad stories are fine for kids" is yours, not mine.

How am I removing context and nuance? I made it clear what happened in the story, I pointed out how Spidey's attempts of throwing big stuff at Firelord all failed and didn't even scratch the guy, I pointed out what the text says is going on, and on publication side, he has two issues to tell this story, most of the second issue was the fight against Firelord since the first issue did all of the setup, number of pages is what DeFalco didn't lack.

spider-man doesn't simply say "**** it" and win. there's a cumulative effect over the course of those two issues.

and it isn't that defalco needs more pages to play out the fight, it's whether devoting more page time to that resolution at the cost of the prior existing elements is worthwhile. not quite the same thing.

I understand what the story is going for, I'm just not going to pretend that I find it okay

i'm unsure why you would want to pretend to like a story but i agree that your choice not to is the best way forward.

i get that you feel this kind of story played out better in other issues and i appreciate your points, as i said, i don't think any are invalid. it's also entirely possible for superficially similar stories to play out differently and be satisfying for different reasons. the subversion of this kinda trope in the invincible cartoon with battle beast works too for entirely different reasons.

personally, watching power levels play out is dead boring. if there's a way for ingenuity of plot, something that advances character or expresses a theme over that, i'm for it.

again, mileage for suspension of disbelief varies.