Was Spiderman defeating Firelord controversial?

[Huntsman Spider]

To be honest, I don't even pay attention to this sort of things. I mean, Sinister Six defeated Avengers (including Thor and Hulk) in Slott's run, Joker defeated and brainwashed Justice League, and after that they were defeated by Batman in Snyder's run. All these comparisons of characters in terms of strength, who can defeat whom, never made much sense, because it all depends solely on the writer, as well as the popularity of the character.

To be fair to the Sinister Six in Ends of the Earth, Doctor Octopus upgraded them all substantially, specifically in preparation for Spider-Man to marshal the Avengers against them. Also, as said in another thread here, a lot of Spider-Man's foes could potentially be formidable threats to the rest of the Marvel Universe heroes if not for their fixation on beating and/or killing Spider-Man. Electro alone would be a Magneto-level threat, based on the nature of his powers, if he had the brains to apply the full potential of those powers, and someone like the Spot should be untouchable by just about any MU hero, again, if he had the mindset to access and apply the full potential of his powers.

[Gaastra]

Yeah, spidey fighting the x-men in secret wars and beating all of them till prof wipes his mind comes to mind.

Spidey beating firelord is fine if he outsmarts him. Thanos was defeated by spidey due to him underestimating him and spidey sets warlock up for thanos defeat.

At the same time didn't spidey punch hulk so hard early on he knocked hulk out? That's not easy to do!

[evolutionaryFan]

At the same time didn't spidey punch hulk so hard early on he knocked hulk out? That's not easy to do!

Hmm... never heard about that one. I know Spiderman punched Grey Hulk into orbit when he had the Captain Universe powers.

[maryjane]

eh !! sometimes it happens !! a good story needs an enemy more powerful than the hero, so there are some characters very powerful that sometimes are used this way... Galactus' heralds, Gladiator, Juggernaut, Blastaar and many more sometimes are used as total idiots, forgetting the great part of their powers, just to give to the hero an ubeatable foe and sometimes they are used at their fullest...
That said, for me Spider-Man is the greatest super hero of all time, with a combination of powers that could be really difficult to beat !!

[Triniking1234]

Even if he for some reason couldn't hit Spidey, and he's for some reason too stupid to just fly away, Spidey's own punches shouldn't hit hard enough to knock down a being as strong as Firelord lol.

It doesn't help that Spidey only really fights him for one page, while the fight against Titania for comparison has a few more pages and we get to actually see her trying and failing to hit him while he hits her, and once Spidey stars hitting Firelord, it's just this:



So a building's implosion and a gas station's explosion don't even scratch him, but some Spider-Guy hitting him really hard is enough to knock him down? Give me a break lol.

Clearly Spidey hit him with that Maximum Spider. That's how he beat Cyber Akuma in Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter.

[Minerboh]

Marvel once depicted Dr Octopus defeating the Hulk...THE HULK...
So, no, in my eyes, it is not controversial.

[Mercwmouth12]

Marvel once depicted Dr Octopus defeating the Hulk...THE HULK...
So, no, in my eyes, it is not controversial.

I mean Peter defeated the Hulk with a joke he told him

[Rob London]

These things don't really bother me. Sometimes a guy on his best day catches a guy on his worst day. For every Mike Tyson, there's a Buster Douglas.

[Huntsman Spider]

Clearly Spidey hit him with that Maximum Spider. That's how he beat Cyber Akuma in Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter.

Oh, you played that, too? Nice. I just went down to an old-school arcade sometime ago and played Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter there. Made it all the way with Spider-Man and Chun-Li --- and yes, the Maximum Spider was involved.

[Lukmendes]

It made no sense but it was a cool visual.

Like Hypno said, Kingpin absolutely demolishes Spidey in the early era, and that didn't make sense either, but it made for good stories.

It seems these days writers have it easier to tell the scale of threats anyway, what with the handbooks and whatnot.

That would be great if more writers actually bothered to use those, or do any research lol.

While I don't think they really should go too far and referencing past comics nobody cares, it's just annoying how say, Shocker, who historically was decent enough when it comes to competency, be treated like a complete loser in the last years, to the point MJ and her motherfucking bat defeated him in that MJ/Black Cat mini...

To be fair to the Sinister Six in Ends of the Earth, Doctor Octopus upgraded them all substantially, specifically in preparation for Spider-Man to marshal the Avengers against them. Also, as said in another thread here, a lot of Spider-Man's foes could potentially be formidable threats to the rest of the Marvel Universe heroes if not for their fixation on beating and/or killing Spider-Man. Electro alone would be a Magneto-level threat, based on the nature of his powers, if he had the brains to apply the full potential of those powers, and someone like the Spot should be untouchable by just about any MU hero, again, if he had the mindset to access and apply the full potential of his powers.

As much as Electro has great potential, he wouldn't be anywhere near Magneto level with his usual powers lol.

Even in his "Pure lightning" days I have my doubts about Electro being Magneto level... Maybe it'd be close though, but I feel like Magneto still would be above.

Hell, when Spidey got Cap U powers and he practically became Superman, even with his enhanced strength he didn't break through Magneto's shields, and while he probably wasn't putting full strength in that punch, it is noticeable that Magneto's shield withstood that much.

Clearly Spidey hit him with that Maximum Spider. That's how he beat Cyber Akuma in Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter.

Makes sense, Spidey was top tier in that game, while Firelord tends to be so bad in Marvel vs Capcom games he's literally unplayable every time.

Marvel once depicted Dr Octopus defeating the Hulk...THE HULK...
So, no, in my eyes, it is not controversial.

I mean, having done worse doesn't make something else not controversial, just less controversial lol.

Like, you can maybe say Civil War isn't as damaging to Stark's character as The Crossing (Where I think it's revealed he was evil since the first time the Avengers dealt with Kang, and if so that happened all the way back in Avengers#8, about two years after Stark's debut), but it's still very damaging lol.

I mean Peter defeated the Hulk with a joke he told him

Apples and oranges, since Otto defeated Hulk just because he got some new Adamantium arms and beat up Hulk, Hulk defeated by a joke is just Hulk calming down enough to detransform.

[Huntsman Spider]

That would be great if more writers actually bothered to use those, or do any research lol.

While I don't think they really should go too far and referencing past comics nobody cares, it's just annoying how say, Shocker, who historically was decent enough when it comes to competency, be treated like a complete loser in the last years, to the point MJ and her motherfucking bat defeated him in that MJ/Black Cat mini...



As much as Electro has great potential, he wouldn't be anywhere near Magneto level with his usual powers lol.

Even in his "Pure lightning" days I have my doubts about Electro being Magneto level... Maybe it'd be close though, but I feel like Magneto still would be above.

Hell, when Spidey got Cap U powers and he practically became Superman, even with his enhanced strength he didn't break through Magneto's shields, and while he probably wasn't putting full strength in that punch, it is noticeable that Magneto's shield withstood that much.



Makes sense, Spidey was top tier in that game, while Firelord tends to be so bad in Marvel vs Capcom games he's literally unplayable every time.



I mean, having done worse doesn't make something else not controversial, just less controversial lol.

Like, you can maybe say Civil War isn't as damaging to Stark's character as The Crossing (Where I think it's revealed he was evil since the first time the Avengers dealt with Kang, and if so that happened all the way back in Avengers#8, about two years after Stark's debut), but it's still very damaging lol.



Apples and oranges, since Otto defeated Hulk just because he got some new Adamantium arms and beat up Hulk, Hulk defeated by a joke is just Hulk calming down enough to detransform.

Fair points, by and large, though I would say Civil War was more controversial, insofar as The Crossing explained Iron Man had been brainwashed into a sleeper agent for Kang, so as bad as that was, it wasn't as bad as Tony, of his own volition, scrubbing down his mansion after the Avengers' first assembly for a lock of Thor's hair that he could stash away to study Thor's DNA in the eventuality of cloning him into a weapon for intimidation that (accidentally) became a murder weapon (that might have been deliberately sabotaged by the Skrull revealed to be posing as Hank Pym in Secret Invasion).

[HypnoHustler]

I just reread it. It’s a fun story. Classic Spidey vibes through and through. And again, I didn’t think it was a big deal he punched him out (would anyone care, or even remember Firelord without this story?). Damaging? Probably less damaging than half of Slott’s run. Or several hundred other questionable Spidey stories (an Aunt May actress dying in her place anyone? How about some robot parents as a palate cleanser?). Plus, as mentioned already, Kingpin… a normal human… has whooped Spidey’s butt how many times? I usually agree with you, Lukmendes, but really think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill with this one.

[Webhead]

That would be great if more writers actually bothered to use those, or do any research lol.
While I don't think they really should go too far and referencing past comics nobody cares, it's just annoying how say, Shocker, who historically was decent enough when it comes to competency, be treated like a complete loser in the last years, to the point MJ and her motherfucking bat defeated him in that MJ/Black Cat mini...

Yeah you have a point. Shocker actually proves me wrong, considering they've miswritten his vibrations to be electrical on fairly modern books.
It seems that being a washed-up has-been is the case for a lot of Spider-villains these days. Not sure if it's deliberate, but ever since raw physical threats like Venom became the norm, regular human villains seem to have dropped in quantity and relevance.

[Lukmendes]

Fair points, by and large, though I would say Civil War was more controversial, insofar as The Crossing explained Iron Man had been brainwashed into a sleeper agent for Kang, so as bad as that was, it wasn't as bad as Tony, of his own volition, scrubbing down his mansion after the Avengers' first assembly for a lock of Thor's hair that he could stash away to study Thor's DNA in the eventuality of cloning him into a weapon for intimidation that (accidentally) became a murder weapon (that might have been deliberately sabotaged by the Skrull revealed to be posing as Hank Pym in Secret Invasion).

Even then though, The Crossing saying that Stark being evil since that early is, bad, because it means every adventure with the Avengers, and his own solo adventures, are invalidated, because he was pretending to be good all along by being Kang's sleeper agent.

It did eventually get corrected, but what The Crossing was implying was, terrible, like, imagine if Green Goblin had Spidey as a sleeper agent since the first time they met all the way back in ASM#14 lol.

So yeah, even if The Crossing isn't as damaging as Civil War

I just reread it. It’s a fun story. Classic Spidey vibes through and through. And again, I didn’t think it was a big deal he punched him out (would anyone care, or even remember Firelord without this story?). Damaging? Probably less damaging than half of Slott’s run. Or several hundred other questionable Spidey stories (an Aunt May actress dying in her place anyone? How about some robot parents as a palate cleanser?). Plus, as mentioned already, Kingpin… a normal human… has whooped Spidey’s butt how many times? I usually agree with you, Lukmendes, but really think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill with this one.

I mean, most of the story is fine, I just don't like how it ends, it's just "Spidey punched Firelord really hard a lot and won" is lazy writing.

And yeah, there's much worse stuff around, that doesn't mean I'll think Spidey defeating Firelord so casually is fine, I don't like bad writing like this and mentioning there's worse won't change my opinion on that, it just means there's worse.

It's specially dumb for me when characters have defined enough powers to be above or below the other, the story made it clear Firelord is ridiculously above Spidey, and Spidey beating up Firelord so casually once he decided to actually try to punch makes every time Spidey gets fucked by Venom look ridiculous since for some reason he struggles with some guy in a goop costume, but a fucking herald of Galactus was much easier to take down.

Oh and I don't think it's actually damaging, well, not to Spidey at least, Firelord looks like a loser after losing like this... But anyways, this isn't comparable to garbage stories that permanently damaged the franchise like Clone Saga or OMD, or even whatever or bad stories with dumb characterization like Maximum Carnage or Superior Spider-Man, it's just something that made Spidey look way stronger than he really is in an undeserving, lazy way, but it's ultimately not damaging anyone, well, besides Firelord... Even then I wouldn't say a dumb loss is too damaging, as long as it's not too frequent (And isn't reminded all the time), after all the Avengers once lost to cavemen in Avengers#115, and that included heavy hitters like Thor and Stark lol,

But yeah, if I had two choices, between 50 stories ending like this, and OMD, well, If I really had to pick one, and choosing neither isn't an option, I'd pick the 50 stories all damn day lol.

Yeah you have a point. Shocker actually proves me wrong, considering they've miswritten his vibrations to be electrical on fairly modern books.

Wonder if that's because of some adaptation lol.

But yeah, if they're doing that it's annoying too, 'cause Shocker's tech is basically shittier Vibranium, which's still ridiculously busted, and it was used by someone who was competent, or at least, wasn't as much of a dumbass as the likes of Electro and Hydro-Man.

It seems that being a washed-up has-been is the case for a lot of Spider-villains these days. Not sure if it's deliberate, but ever since raw physical threats like Venom became the norm, regular human villains seem to have dropped in quantity and relevance.

I mean, not like a lot of Spidey's best villains are really regular humans, hell, some like Electro, Rhino or Sandman are actually way stronger than him (At least Electro wins in raw power, but he's not very resistant to being attacked).

The problem is nerfing other villains to the point they're way less threatening than they used to be, and Shocker has it worse than anyone, I blame Ultimate's influence on this, only Ultimate Shocker seemed to have more dignity somehow, and it's annoying to do that, it actually damages Spidey's rogues gallery by making them less threatening, and considering how Shocker is his own thing with his equipment as a Spidey villain, not to mention how his characterization used to be more professional and not too vindictive, which made him stand out too, making him become so weak and whiny is just sad.

[Webhead]

I mean, not like a lot of Spidey's best villains are really regular humans, hell, some like Electro, Rhino or Sandman are actually way stronger than him (At least Electro wins in raw power, but he's not very resistant to being attacked).

The problem is nerfing other villains to the point they're way less threatening than they used to be, and Shocker has it worse than anyone, I blame Ultimate's influence on this, only Ultimate Shocker seemed to have more dignity somehow, and it's annoying to do that, it actually damages Spidey's rogues gallery by making them less threatening, and considering how Shocker is his own thing with his equipment as a Spidey villain, not to mention how his characterization used to be more professional and not too vindictive, which made him stand out too, making him become so weak and whiny is just sad.

It was a bit more balanced. Out of the original Sinister Six, Mysterio and Kraven (well, at least pre-mystical herb consumption) didn't have any powers, and Doc Ock and Vulture are essentially regular guys with tech.

Maybe it's just that most of these guys needed revamps at one point or another, and those who didn't get one in time are pretty much stuck as ineffectual losers. Superior Foes also buried any chance for Shocker to be taken seriously.