Chris Claremont and Iceman

[BobbysWorld]

Eh, to be honest, as much as I do think its true that Bobby never ended up on a lot of X-Fans' radars in any lasting way because he was a non-factor in Claremont's run....I don't really see it as a missed opportunity because if Claremont's really just...not a fan of the character, it wouldn't necessarily be to the character's benefit to have an expanded presence under the pen of a writer who flat out doesn't find him interesting or like him based on who he already is.

Like I definitely always had the impression Claremont doesn't like Bobby or have any interest in exploring him (and while I can't find it either, I also remember seeing past comments from him attesting to his dislike of the character). One of the very few places Claremont DID write Bobby was in the story where the 05 leave after Krakoa, not wanting to stick around alongside the new team because they don't like the changes that came with 'their home' now being full of strangers they have no history with. Or at least that was the in-story justification for them all leaving the place they'd called home since they were teenagers, immediately after being rescued and without even trying to see how things worked with both them and the new team sharing the mansion. But of course, the real reason was Claremont wanted to focus on the new team, the characters he'd picked and been given that were explicitly and wholly associated with HIM and his run from that point on....and he had very little interest in just 'inheriting' characters that weren't to his preferences and he might not have had a ton of ideas for. So he just shuffled the characters he wanted offscreen....offscreen, as quickly and easily as he could, so he could put his focus on the characters he DID want to write.

So that one issue where Claremont writes the 05 first departing is IMO a fairly plausible glimpse of what Bobby might have been like under his pen, even if Claremont HAD been convinced to keep him around. And uh, quite frankly? Bobby was an ******* in that issue. Tbh I would likely have no interest in his character if that attitude became definitively associated with him....as it is, that one brief instance of Claremont writing him there, along with how he was written in the Arcade story....like, even that alone had repercussions later down the line. Chuck Austen cited the couple of times Claremont wrote Bobby as his inspiration and justification for characterizing Bobby as a belligerent ******* constantly sniping with everyone and picking fights in his run. I can't stand Austen's take on Bobby, lol. Literally my least favorite 'longterm run' with Bobby....he was just a douchebag in Austen's run, using his insecurities and alleged secondary mutation as an excuse to make everyone else around him miserable, trying to throw his weight around as one of the original X-Men and dismissive of everyone to come after....it was the complete opposite of everything that appeals to me about Bobby.

To be clear, there's elements of that in other runs that I have no problem with. I don't need my faves to be saints or perfect. And honestly, I LIKE Bobby being hot-headed and second-guessing the leaders of his teams, strong-willed about his own opinions and ideas and not looking to just go along with whatever he's told to do because that's what he's been ordered to do. I'm a big fan of Bobby with a brain and Bobby with a spine, and Bobby with his own stances on things and not just a yes-man for Scott or Xavier or whomever else is in charge. Its one of the reasons original X-Factor is such a fave of mine, not to mention the era of Uncanny when Bobby was visibly struggling with how he'd been affected by Emma's possession, the shifts in his power, his father's bigotry, etc...Bobby with rough edges, abrasive jokes that sometimes ARE a bit mean and not just light-hearted, with a quicker trigger finger and willingness to use harsh tactics than most other characters expect from him....I'm down for all of that.

BUT that's only because those things AREN'T the norm for Bobby. In the context of his overall history, times when Bobby's been an ******* or even just colder or harsher than usual...those are the exceptions to the rule, the outliers to his norm. They're times when he's acting out of character without ACTUALLY being OOC....where its not that his behavior is unbelievable, its just uncharacteristic and indicative of him being in a particularly bad headspace. Its him when he's Going Through It, not just him being....him. Like 'oh that's just how Bobby is.'

There's ways to have Bobby be hot-headed and with his own opinions and stances on things without him just being a dick about it. There's ways to show that Bobby's not always Mr. Nice Guy without treating it as though his nice guy persona is the real false face, an act that he puts on to cover up 'actually' being a mean-spirited, lonely ******* underneath. Austen didn't have any interest in nuance....he found the 'usual takes' on Bobby uninteresting, and talked about how he had to hunt through back issues to find an angle on Bobby he thought he could sink his teeth into....and then he found the issues Claremont had written him.

Now OBVIOUSLY, Claremont is a much better writer than Austen. There's no real comparison. But its not about comparing their execution for me, its about how like....even with as little as Claremont wrote Bobby, I can absolutely see HOW Austen got the characterization for Bobby that he did, based on just that. Its very much....an obvious interpretation or extrapolation of how Claremont seemed to see the character, and I think if Claremont HAD ended up writing Bobby more than he did....it would have followed very similar patterns of characterization. The 'funny man' who reacts badly and lashes out when confronted with people who don't find him funny or have a soft spot for him like the 05 did.

And given the personalities of the characters Claremont did prioritize.....I don't see much chance Bobby would get to be a fun, light-hearted jokester when Claremont already had Kurt in that role and cast in a much more sympathetic light.....Storm would have had little to no patience for a Bobby that constantly second-guessed her authority, especially if he kept doing so on the basis of 'I was here first'....Logan, Banshee, John and Shiro would likely have just seen him as a punk they had no interest in putting up with more than they had to. Like...the stage was not set for Bobby to find a niche among Claremont's overall cast.

Lastly.....the specific ways Claremont had Bobby get aggressive with John and Piotr and the others....were yikes. He basically had Bobby go off on Piotr based on anti-Soviet stereotypes that were the norm at the time, as well as him basically being racist towards John - like we're not talking about slurs here, but definitely dealing out micro-aggressions. And given that Claremont's All-New lineup included the characters it did specifically TO be way more inclusive than the 05 had been.....its a pretty likely bet that a 'natural direction' for Bobby in Claremont's eyes...aka the first thing he landed upon for a character he didn't want to do much with....was a stuck in his ways guy who was destined to be the odd man out and just not fit in with the more progressive lineup he 'just didn't get/gel with.'

In essence....Bobby by Claremont IMO held a very strong chance of ending up EXACTLY the kind of character his father was....rather than the character *I* grew to love specifically BECAUSE he broke the cycle of how he was raised and basically devoted his entire life to fighting against the kinds of intolerances his father was willing to espouse, even against his own family.

Sooooo....ngl, I've always breathed a sigh of relief about Claremont NOT doing more with his character. Being written by a good writer is no guarantee of getting good stories or characterization...if said writer doesn't actually like your character or WANT you characterized as any kind of likable, but sees you as more useful when depicted as a cautionary tale or a 'don't be like that guy' kind of character.

Obviously this is all speculation and just theorizing based on what little Claremont has done with Bobby or said about him, but its not like I'm pulling it out of nowhere, y'know? Everything Claremont's mentioned over the years, as far as I've seen, while maybe not being 'Oh I hate that guy, what a shitty character'....it all still seems to line up with this interpretation, whereas I've never seen so much as a single interview or comment from him that suggests Claremont's ever had ANY kind of ideas or positive angles for the character that he just never got to implement or views as a 'wish there'd been time/space to include this.'

*Shrugs* So tbh, all due respect to Claremont and his iconic run and all the work he did building the franchise and many of its characters into what they are today....

But personally, I think him NOT writing Bobby more is probably one of the best things to ever happen to the character, even if it does mean he missed out on the higher profile/visibility that would have come with more of a presence in Claremont's run.

We could've ended up with a very different 'core' characterization for Bobby's overall history, and I genuinely just don't think it would have been a characterization that I (or many Iceman fans) would have liked. But as always, YMMV.

[Zelena]

Claremont had many characters to play with… Why should have he forced himself to use Iceman if he wasn’t inspired by him?

[Nicoclaws]

I think the only OG X-Men Claremont had any affinity for were Scott, Jean and Hank. I get the feeling Claremont would have used Beast much more than he did if he had access to him more regularly, whereas I don't think he'd use Angel or Iceman even if they weren't in Defenders or whatever. And then of course Alex and Lorna got roles towards the end of his run.

It's a shame too. Claremont's the biggest and most influential run for the franchise, so Iceman being one of the big name X-Men and not getting a role in this run makes it feel like something's missing, same with Angel and Beast only getting rare appearances. Honestly, I would have rather seen an arc for Bobby than read about Dazzler and Longshot. Makes me wonder what he would have done with Bobby and Warren if the Claremont/Lee run reached until #300 like originally intended.

He used Beast a bit when he returned, but not that much.
Although I suspect he found him way more interesting when he modified his body.

[Devaishwarya]

Louise Simonson's X-Factor was all the Bobby I needed back then.

[SiegePerilous02]

Eh, to be honest, as much as I do think its true that Bobby never ended up on a lot of X-Fans' radars in any lasting way because he was a non-factor in Claremont's run....I don't really see it as a missed opportunity because if Claremont's really just...not a fan of the character, it wouldn't necessarily be to the character's benefit to have an expanded presence under the pen of a writer who flat out doesn't find him interesting or like him based on who he already is.

...

Yeah, the back-up in Classic X-Men #1 really is pretty lousy. Chiefly for the retcon of "Jean's always had an animal attraction to Wolverine and loved him the most," but Bobby's characterization is a close second. It really was an exercise in making the OG X-Men (at least Warren and Bobby) look shitty to prop up the ANAD X-Men. Thunderbird's characterization is even retconned. Maybe if that was a glimpse of how he had would have written the character, he may have had Bobby grow out of it. Because his interactions with Colossus in Inferno and Mutant Genesis, as small as they are, are not hostile. Or maybe by that point he was just being nice to Iceman because Simonson was writing/had written him. I agree that if he never really had any interest in Bobby, it wouldn't be worth the risk for the character to see Claremont take a crack at him anyway.

Claremont's opinions can't be changed, nor should they, so it all worked out for the best. Still kind of a shame that a writer of his caliber (back at his peak) didn't see potential in Bobby or Warren, when their history with the team and interacting with the shifting dynamics could have resulted in a lot of interesting stuff.

He used Beast a bit when he returned, but not that much.
Although I suspect he found him way more interesting when he modified his body.

I think he wanted to use Beast in X-Treme X-Men, but Morrison called dibs. That's why Hank vanishes after like three issues

[WallStreeter]

It’s water under the bridge. Bobby was in XFactor in the 80s and all the o5 rejoined the XMen. We cannot accuse Bobby of being under exposed. He’s not.

Bobby was never developed to be a leader. Bjt not everyone is a leader. I think he’s more of a regular person than say Scott or Jean or Ororo or Hank.

[Technopriest]

Just a small correction. The decision to have the O5 leave after Krakoa (and the issue where it happened) was Len Wein's, not Claremont.

[MexM]

Just a small correction. The decision to have the O5 leave after Krakoa (and the issue where it happened) was Len Wein's, not Claremont.

I don't remember if that was Claremont who wrote it but there's a later issue that goes more into detail of the day after O5 get rescued and interact with the new team, and yeah Bobby's awfully racist in it.

Probably the reason I’m not into Bobby is that Claremont never gave him a personality, so he’s still basically Cold Johnny Storm and someone tagged “gay” in there as an adjective later.

With me it's the opposite, so many writers have done an amazing job giving a Bobby a personality beyond Frosty Human Torch and now more have gone in-depth regarding his coming out so he ended up a more fleshed out character than most modern chars, meaning I'm now less interested in Claremont's runs since he never bothered with him.

[Technopriest]

I don't remember if that was Claremont who wrote it but there's a later issue that goes more into detail of the day after O5 get rescued and interact with the new team, and yeah Bobby's awfully racist in it.

He didn't, at that point Wein had written what was supposed to be GS X-Men 1 and 2. The decision was then made to continue the X-Men title with new material, so GS X-Men 2 was folded into those first couple issues (94 and 95 if I am not remembering wrong) but at that point Wein was pretty busy (he was an editor at Marvel as well) so Claremont was brought in to write dialog for those two issues and didn't take the writing duties until 96. Is pretty common that Claremont gets the credit or blame for those issues, but he wasn't the writer. The issues in Classic back ups are all his though.
And yes, Bobby was borderline racist there, but considering his upbringing is not hard to see him having those ideas. Bobby pretty much broke off from his father's upbringing later on though, but I actually find that part of his early characterization interesting. He wasn't perfect but was able to move beyond his upbringing, to me that is an interesting character arc.

[Technopriest]

The decision was made early (and before Claremont was put in the title) that the new X-Men adventures would focus on the new characters and not the old guard, who were being moved into other Marvel titles with the exception of Cyclops who would remain as leader and was actually the only one of the originals that Dave Cockrum liked and had any interest in doing. Since Byrne was a fan of the Thomas and Adams run, he wanted to draw more of the originals, so he managed to get Beast and Angel in there as compromise (Claremont himself has said he is not a big Bobby fan, he doesn't hate the character just never found him interesting, which is his right).

[Alan2099]

Given Iceman's exposure in Spider-man and his Amazing Friends at the time, I always considered it a missed opportunity to let Iceman integrate himself more into the rest of the Marvel Universe. I'm not saying to give him his own series (although it could have been fun) but letting him show up in other books for team-ups or giving him a slot on one of the two Avengers teams could have done wonders for the character. Instead he got stuck on the Champions which was basically "I don't know what to do with these characters so let's put them on a team together."

There's always been something about the character that I felt would work better for mainstream superheroing rather than mutant angst stuff.

I remember a twitter thread i think of a guy who asked him about the coming out at a convention. His answer was basically "haven't read it, but I'm sure it was garbage" XD

Well, I mean, he's not wrong this time.

[BrianWilly]

I feel like this thread is putting a lot of words into Claremont's mouth despite citing nearly nothing from the man himself lol. Sure, he's probably not particularly interested in Iceman just based off of his writing history, but it's a bit iffy to read all that much much more into it.

With me it's the opposite, so many writers have done an amazing job giving a Bobby a personality beyond Frosty Human Torch and now more have gone in-depth regarding his coming out so he ended up a more fleshed out character than most modern chars, meaning I'm now less interested in Claremont's runs since he never bothered with him.

Definitely agreed. The amount of work that recent writers have put into Iceman has really paid off, making him just as developed as any other major X-Men character, if not moreso.

[Alphaxman]

I didn't mind Bobby not appearing in the X-Men that often during the late 70s and thru the 80s. Looking back, it was a good idea to spread the mutants around. He did have a short run with the Champions and he was with the New Defenders in the early part of the 80s before getting back with the original X-Men with X-Factor.
I just wish he could interact with past teammates like Black Widow, Hercules and Valkyrie. And I would love to see reconnect with Darkstar.

[Hekabolos]

Given Iceman's exposure in Spider-man and his Amazing Friends at the time, I always considered it a missed opportunity to let Iceman integrate himself more into the rest of the Marvel Universe. I'm not saying to give him his own series (although it could have been fun) but letting him show up in other books for team-ups or giving him a slot on one of the two Avengers teams could have done wonders for the character. Instead he got stuck on the Champions which was basically "I don't know what to do with these characters so let's put them on a team together."

There's always been something about the character that I felt would work better for mainstream superheroing rather than mutant angst stuff.

If I remember correctly, Champions was originally supposed to be an Angel and Iceman buddy book, which would have worked well as a "guest-star of the month" title like Marvel Two-in-One or Marvel Team Up and integrated them more into the Marvel Universe. Editorial mandate turned Champions into the castoffs book.

[Phoenixx9]

I didn't mind Bobby not appearing in the X-Men that often during the late 70s and thru the 80s. Looking back, it was a good idea to spread the mutants around. He did have a short run with the Champions and he was with the New Defenders in the early part of the 80s before getting back with the original X-Men with X-Factor.
I just wish he could interact with past teammates like Black Widow, Hercules and Valkyrie. And I would love to see reconnect with Darkstar.

I would like to see Bobby team up again with BW, Herc, Darkstar and Brunhilde Valkyrie too.