Original Sin #8 Spoilers

[Danny Wall]

Personally, I'd like to see someone come in and retcon Fury's whole involvement in this thing eventually. Reveal that it was actually an LMD that was the 'man on the wall' It just doesn't fit with the Fury we know.

At this point, I think that ALL Nick Furies should be LMDs at this point. There never was an "infinity formula" and the real Fury died sometime in late 1940s.

[Danny Wall]

Here's a piece of what I wrote for WCBR:

Interestingly, it does make sense that Fury and the Watcher would be so at odds. Fury, the man who must interfere as much as possible, and the Watcher with his characteristic standoffish-ness. I see a commentary here on the modern superhero mythos. In 2014, when society is bombarded with more information than ever, with lack of privacy such an issue, and personal information flooding the streets as if from an exploding eyeball, which is the appropriate response? Nick argues that the Watcher is choosing poorly, but his own solution is driving him to destruction. The Watcher, too, is simply too tired to continued, having seen “too much” and would rather give up than to continue being awash in information. The comic, unfortunately, contains no answers for us, except for the existential horror that this dichotomy will be our fate, that we are shackled to it (or like the Orb, it’s been grafted inescapably to us.)

This lack of answer, to me, is the really unsatisfying element to Original Sin. I do enjoy the Marvel Universe’s more “realistic” vision of the world, the kind of world-building that sets it apart from the Golden Age vision that birthed DC’s, but usually there’s always been heroes that somehow showed us how we could rise above. Spider-Man’s responsibility, Captain America’s optimism, Iron Man’s drive, the X-Men’s camaraderie… Here, we are given no heroic ambition to overcome the “horror” of the world, and instead our heroes merely succumb to it. It shouldn’t be that the only person with a vision for bettering herself/the future is the villain Exterminatrix.

http://weeklycomicbookreview.com/201...in-1-8-review/

[jackolover]

This whole event would have been a lot better had they stuck to it being more murder mystery and not try to make it some epic cosmic clash and the last stand and retcon of the OG Nick Fury as one of the greatest individuals the 616 had ever seen. Mainly because HE ALREADY WAS BEFORE ALL THIS BULL story began!

I get why Original Sin exists, but much like Fear Itself, there are big questions on whether or not it should. But hey, at least now Fear Itself and Age of Ultron has company at the bottom of Marvel's post 2000 big crossover lists.

If you look where this Event sent the super heroes, (Cap finding out the Illuminati sabotaged him, Fury finding a replacement for his man on the wall, Thors unworthiness portended, the Watcher not being around to warn people anymore, and the Orb with a Watchers eye in his chest running around witnessing the result of secrets revealed), as Dr Strange said to Panther, everybody is going to be much more suspicious of everyone in the MU now that those secrets are out there. For starters the Illuminati are anticipating a visit by the Avengers seeing as how directly after OS#8, Cap went hunting down Tony Stark and went on a time travel adventure to meet Iron Lad.

The effect of OS on the MU is to take out the comforting knowledge that your friends are who they say they are, if you can't trust Fury to be just a retired DoS. The Avengers are now split down the middle between Cap and Iron Man; the FF are split apart because of some secret information given to the government (Steve Rogers?); Spiderman has some crazy new spider girlfriend that is attracting the wrong kind of attention (Morlun).

The world is not as friendly anymore as it was in All New Marvel NOW. Avengers NOW is a much less hospitable environment to be in.

[jackolover]

I have not read the entire thread so my bad if I'm repeating anything that has already been mentioned but this story is good. The whole time I'm thinking this is a classic murder mystery like a Law & Order episode, in a way it was but it was also so much more. With the last issue we come to see this is really a story about old Nick Furry ,Uatu and Uatu's death wish. To me that was the reveal, not that Nick Furry shot Uatu but the fact that it was Uatu who engineered all of the events leading to his death. Furry was the man on the wall and took an active role to save our planet and did it like a good soldier should, every step Furry took Uatu was right there watching. Not only was Uatu watching Furry he was watching everything on Earth. Every little secret and detail that could save countless lives everyday is in the Watchers eyes and to the contrary of what Furry thought about the Watcher, Uatu cared deeply for earth and its inhabitants. It pained the watcher to just sit by and watch but like a good soldier he performs his duty . Now the line the Orb drops at the end of the issue is key, He tells Furry that they were both chosen. The way I take that is Uatu puts into the Orbs mind "come take my eye you can have all the secrets". Being the man on the wall and seeing the watcher has been hit Furry is going to do something about it like the watcher knew furry would. Furry see's one eye missing and knows what it could mean if it feel into the wrong hands. The watcher is not telling Furry who took it, the watcher has one eye left, he knows what's in Furry's job description and it's been established that it was The watcher that gave Orb the original idea. Just to make it poetic Furry is now made the new watcher and the way I interpreted those chains are the other watchers who came down floating near the end like Uatu have probably seen everything that has happened leading up to this point and to punish Furry and at the same time filling a vacancy the watchers made Furry the new watcher for earth, the planet that he has killed so much for in secrecy. Now we as the watchers chain you here and make you watch everything while doing nothing in secret. Uatu did it for thousands if not millions of years, helping where he could be even he blew his brains out because the job really is a bitch. As I'm writing I'm thinking knowing what we know now about Furry how much can he see and know he can do nothing before he put together a scheme like this. Like I said it's a good story

Also, could you edit that Fury has one 'r'. Thanks.

You do make some assumptions here, in that the Watcher mentally instructed Orb to take his eye. I can't remember that being the case. And the idea that the Watchers chained Fury to the moon as a sort of punishment, so he can watch, but never touch, is also unclear at this stage.

But the premise of the Watcher being heavy with the load of watching and never doing, placed against Fury who could watch and do, does ring true. That load of inaction could weigh heavy on a person and there could come a time when he has had enough, much like the UN body watching atrocities in the world ever since WW 11 finished, but being powerless to act in many cases. It's not a bad idea for the body of the OS story.

[jackolover]

Sort of true, no explanation as to why he took it on himself to do this. He wasn't very fond of Nick in this event to begin with.

But Bucky agreed with the idea, and so did the Punisher. Frank could have taken that role too, but he had too many Mafioso to take care of to be altruistic like that. Bucky has a pedigree of being altruistic as the partner of Captain America, who had the high ideals that world protection was the ultimate goal. What better person to place on the wall than Bucky, because he can get his hands dirty, unlike Steve Rogers.

[tabo61]

I almost felt sorry for Thor. Ha! Ha!

[jackolover]

1) I think I have a vastly different view on events than most online do. I dont think they are supposed to be game changing. I think they are just supposed to be stories using a much bigger cast.Its probably why I dont get event fatigue, because I want an enjoyable story, and if the story is bad, then I treat it like any other bad story that I read every month.

2)I like the poetry of killing a watcher is to become a watcher. Nick being a man of action, have to stare at a world and do nothing about it, is true torture.

3)Deodato art was awe inspiring. Even when the story failed, Deodato's work didnt.

4)The Orb becoming the ultimate peeping tom was creepy, but a dead end.

5)I dont really see how this affects Marcus, other than no longer being in contact with his Father. They both exist now on two different playing fields. Even though I do feel we are going to Nick Fury LMD stories in the future.Maybe they start acting indepently and continue Nick's legacy.

6)The Thor moment was really off. I think I will reread it because its either means that people dont REMEMBER, who Thor is because he is no longer worthy of being Thor, or just poor execution.

2) Poetic justice?

5) It makes the use of Fury LMDs irrelevant, seeing as how we now know Fury isn't tied to them. Bucky LMDs, now that's another matter. Bucky now has all the alien tech that made the Fury LMDs so Bucky can make his own. Wouldn't surprise me if Logan has been using LMDs this whole time, because he has even been joking himself that he can be in different places at the same time.

[jackolover]

At this point, I think that ALL Nick Furies should be LMDs at this point. There never was an "infinity formula" and the real Fury died sometime in late 1940s.

That's not a bad idea, that a doll has been running around as an assassin popping off would be threats in the background. It would read like a Terminator story, that's so creepy you couldn't go to sleep at night because you think this robot will walk into your room and decide you are a threat and boom.

[jackolover]

Here's a piece of what I wrote for WCBR:



http://weeklycomicbookreview.com/201...in-1-8-review/

It's a good review and the rating is well earned, B-. You have insightful connections to the real world with internet and other communication overload, where information on us is spread far and wide, and there is hopelessness involved in how to deal with this. That is one perspective. You could take the positive outlook and see, like Externinatrix, the positive hopeful view of the future. Change is the scary thing that we all have to deal with, and it looks like the real world is going through a change because of the information flood that is going on. If Jason Aaron is reflecting this change in the Marvel Universe with the dichotomy between Fury and the Watcher, and, the Orb disseminating secrets, then Aaron has done a good job.

Myself? I'm not concerned that Fury has been the Man on the wall this whole time, and that this role has been a secret, because I feel Fury has been this Man his whole life. Everybody has known throughout the history of the modern MU that Fury has known all the secrets, and to elaborate at last it into a role like the Unseen is just giving accreditation to something we already accepted. Fury has always been the Man on the wall. I never doubted it. It just required someone to come along and show us how he was doing it in the background.

What I cannot reconcile here is the idea that the Watcher picked today to be so tired that he had to commit suicide to relieve him of the task as the Watcher. Why now? He has been doing this for Millennia, and he picks now to get tired? I don't buy it. I think it was inevitable that something like this was going to happen, but I don't think the Watcher was too tired and gave it up. He just had a child with his wife. He had his whole life ahead of him, to impart his knowledge to his kid, like his father did for him. No, I think this was a murder mystery and the Earth has come to a head, where the Watcher was going to be the scape goat in this. Circumstance led to this Event, and I think the Watcher was being a proactive participant to it, so that down the track, he could resolve this better by showing what error was going on in the Earth. This is not over yet. There is a whole lot more going on here than what Marvel is showing.

[Dabpool]

[QUOTE=jackolover;480400]Also, could you edit that Fury has one 'r'. Thanks.

It's done, thanks for the heads up can't see how I over looked that

You do make some assumptions here, in that the Watcher mentally instructed Orb to take his eye. I can't remember that being the case. And the idea that the Watchers chained Fury to the moon as a sort of punishment, so he can watch, but never touch, is also unclear at this stage.

I wouldn't say I'm making assumptions as more maybe we are interpiting events differently. The Orb was shown I think last issue to be the one to take the plan to raid the watcher to Midas. once there Midas went for weapons and Orb went for the eye. In this issue he states to Furry " We didn't start this, We didn't chose him or the eye" "He chose us" On the page page when Fury asks who he has to kill next the watcher replies " You already know". Lastly when Furry demands to know what has Uata seen the watcher looks sad as hell as he tells Fury "to much" and "it's time for some one else to watch" Lastly the last set of captions explains what Fury's role is going to be and it's that of a watcher. If you notice when Nick walks and we see the chains on his feet there is a "CHING" sound like there might as well be lead balls on the end of them. So Fury won't be popping in and out like Uata did, no he is stuck on the moon. I did make an assumption to think the other watchers did that but who else could it be

[Mikekerr3]

This really sounds like the worse kind of fan fiction.

I think you ow the worst fan fiction an apology

[oldschoolfan]

This really ended on a bad note for me.

Since when does what a mortal (Nick Fury) say make a difference whether or not you can hold the hammer? You are either worthy or not worthy. Period.

I have been following Jason Aaron's run on Thor and it has had it's ups and downs. But, this seals it for me.....Aaron is ruining Thor.

On that note, I thought Mike Deodato did a great job.

[jackolover]

It's done, thanks for the heads up can't see how I over looked that

I wouldn't say I'm making assumptions as more maybe we are interpiting events differently. The Orb was shown I think last issue to be the one to take the plan to raid the watcher to Midas. once there Midas went for weapons and Orb went for the eye. In this issue he states to Furry " We didn't start this, We didn't chose him or the eye" "He chose us" On the page page when Fury asks who he has to kill next the watcher replies " You already know". Lastly when Furry demands to know what has Uata seen the watcher looks sad as hell as he tells Fury "to much" and "it's time for some one else to watch" Lastly the last set of captions explains what Fury's role is going to be and it's that of a watcher. If you notice when Nick walks and we see the chains on his feet there is a "CHING" sound like there might as well be lead balls on the end of them. So Fury won't be popping in and out like Uata did, no he is stuck on the moon. I did make an assumption to think the other watchers did that but who else could it be

You're probably right about the Watcher choosing Orb and to hand over the Watching job. I sometimes have problems understanding what some writers are saying sometimes through their characters and what Orb said just went over my head. It probably has something to do with the weariness of the Watcher at his job. But that first issue, the OS #0, saw the Watcher anticipating his own end. I thought that was just prescience, but it could have been his plan had been set in place, as you suggest. The same with Furys role being described. Another lot of dialogue that went over my head, though it seems quite obvious now that you point it out. Speaking of which, all that rubble Fury is walking around in, does that mean the whole of the Watchers observatory is destroyed? (By the way, the idea I came up with was that it wasn't the Watchers who put Fury in chains as a super being, but Midas, who transferred some of his power into Fury?)

So, I wish it was made a lot clearer that the Watcher forced this upon everyone as one of his long term plans, but instead, we may have to imply it just from some of the commentary. If it is the case that the Watcher pushed OS on everybody, I would have liked that the plot started with that. However, I do understand that the Watchers are highly evolved beings and they may have different logic to what human readers use, so it may have been unproductive to show the Watchers point of view?

[Danny Wall]

Myself? I'm not concerned that Fury has been the Man on the wall this whole time, and that this role has been a secret, because I feel Fury has been this Man his whole life. Everybody has known throughout the history of the modern MU that Fury has known all the secrets, and to elaborate at last it into a role like the Unseen is just giving accreditation to something we already accepted. Fury has always been the Man on the wall. I never doubted it. It just required someone to come along and show us how he was doing it in the background.

yes, that's a good point. there's noting necessarily contradictory about Fury as the Man of the Wall, so it doesn'thave to be a "new role" for him. However, it certainly is in terms of sheer scale. It's one thing to be international superspy with all the secrets then to suddenly be crashing down dimensional walls and hopping across asteroids. There's a reason that there's all kinds of James Bond movies and only one that's nearly universally derided: Moonraker. Perhaps a quick fix might have been to make Fury just NOW starting to be man on the wall, or shown gradually having increased that role, to the point that it drove him insane. There's some subtext of that already, but only in that it *already* happened, and it would make a better narrative transition maybe to have seen that descent.

What I cannot reconcile here is the idea that the Watcher picked today to be so tired that he had to commit suicide to relieve him of the task as the Watcher. Why now? He has been doing this for Millennia, and he picks now to get tired? I don't buy it. I think it was inevitable that something like this was going to happen, but I don't think the Watcher was too tired and gave it up. He just had a child with his wife. He had his whole life ahead of him, to impart his knowledge to his kid, like his father did for him. No, I think this was a murder mystery and the Earth has come to a head, where the Watcher was going to be the scape goat in this. Circumstance led to this Event, and I think the Watcher was being a proactive participant to it, so that down the track, he could resolve this better by showing what error was going on in the Earth. This is not over yet. There is a whole lot more going on here than what Marvel is showing.

True, but unfortunately some of the details you want to reconcile (his wife, child, etc) aren't important to the Original Sin series so they aren't factors at all. But I understand your questions. I mean, we should also be asking why a character so alien (his role is pretty weird and cosmic in the first place) succumbs to human ennui. Is watching humanity enough to make you lose faith in it and result in suicidal depression? Man, that's a horrible message.

Also, there's just as many implications to the outcome of the story, but they must come from outside the series, too. For example, why must Fury be the Unseen? Who set him up in chains? Won't just another Watcher come in and take the role of the former?

[jackolover]

yes, that's a good point. there's noting necessarily contradictory about Fury as the Man of the Wall, so it doesn'thave to be a "new role" for him. However, it certainly is in terms of sheer scale. It's one thing to be international superspy with all the secrets then to suddenly be crashing down dimensional walls and hopping across asteroids. There's a reason that there's all kinds of James Bond movies and only one that's nearly universally derided: Moonraker. Perhaps a quick fix might have been to make Fury just NOW starting to be man on the wall, or shown gradually having increased that role, to the point that it drove him insane. There's some subtext of that already, but only in that it *already* happened, and it would make a better narrative transition maybe to have seen that descent.

Okay, I can see why people recoil away from the idea of a Nick Fury, space invader. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, considering the Hickman series of SHIELD, both old and new (Secret Warriors), where Fury is so in front of the field that he has Hydra working for him from the very start of the Silver Age. If Fury has the capability to infiltrate anybody to this extent, there must be more to this guy than just a James Bond. He is the Master Planner. He obviously doesn't sit back and let the world pass by and not interfere with it. He didn't flinch in Secret War when he went against the whole United States Government and throws himself under a bus. He has no scruples about whether Maria Hill is DoS or Dugan or Stark, because he works outside the laws and confines of the worlds barriers. This is not a guy who (owning SWORD and Prometheus, and TIME) is going to be limited to just terrestrial issues. All these things dealing with dimensions and Space-Time are Furys play ground. They have to be.

True, but unfortunately some of the details you want to reconcile (his wife, child, etc) aren't important to the Original Sin series so they aren't factors at all. But I understand your questions. I mean, we should also be asking why a character so alien (his role is pretty weird and cosmic in the first place) succumbs to human ennui. Is watching humanity enough to make you lose faith in it and result in suicidal depression? Man, that's a horrible message.

Also, there's just as many implications to the outcome of the story, but they must come from outside the series, too. For example, why must Fury be the Unseen? Who set him up in chains? Won't just another Watcher come in and take the role of the former?

Yes, that is the question. Why not another Watcher, indeed. That's where I think Uatu set this whole thing up, maybe to weed out the real culprit? I think the other Watchers were in on the plan and let Uatu do it like this as his wishes. There was even the grieving widow scene in this issue too, just to throw us off guard, maybe?

If this does get resolved outside this series, which it most certainly has to now, Uatu is setting in train, allowing the Earth heroes to know about Furys duties before Fury was about to die. Orb and Midas were just the side show. When Fury caught up with Midas and Orb that side of the game was over. What is left is that Uatu doesn't look like he wanted Fury to just die like that. Maybe he wanted there to be a continuation of the duty. If Uatu didn't pull this suicide, Fury wouldn't have been able to collect his 3 teams of people he wanted as candidates to replace Fury. If Fury just died one day, the unseen would have faded away unnoticed. I think Uatu had a soft spot for Fury and what he was doing.