Superman Projects That Almost Were

[SuperCrab]

I vaguely remember during the era of the New52 Superman, that either in the miniseries where "SuperDad" was in hiding letting New52 Superman be the Superman of the DC Universe (Chronicled in a miniseries by Dan Jurgens IIRC correctly. SuperDad wore a black suit similar to the one from the Resurrection tank or whatever it was the post-Crisis Superman was in when he was resurrected after dying at the hands of Doomsday, and did some good work in secret, like stopping Tsunamis from hitting land by running under water), or somewhere early thereafter, that one or both of the Supermen (In those days, both variations on Clark Kent, not Clark and Jon), was noticing that his powers were slightly diminished (Not in the context of the New52 Truth arc, where they obviously were).

I think we discussed it here or elsewhere, and there was some discussion of "Well, maybe it's just SuperDad because he's getting a little older, and maybe his powers are declining a tad as part of the aging process in the same way athletes aren't usually as good at sports at 50 as they were when they were younger.", but someone found a similar reference from either the New52 Superman or Keenan Kong, both of whom were too young for it, prompting us to speculate if this was a planetary issue affecting Kryptonians, or with earth's sun (In the context of the DC Universe), that was going to come to a head later. And then it was dropped.

Ultimately, that may have just been a way of signaling that SuperDad and the New52 Superman were both half of a whole, building to the Superman Reborn story arc a couple years later, or that one of them was dying (Obviously, New52 Superman is the one who died, but maybe it was originally planned to be SuperDad), but I noticed in these 5g rumors, Clark Kent is said to be retiring to Africa after his powers diminish.

Is there any possibility SuperDad noticing his powers weren't quite what they used to be was actually an early seed for 5G (Which was planned but never happened)? Or am I giving them too much credit for long-term planning and foreshadowing?

[Stanlos]

Exactly how would that work though? And why would want to make comocs' first and greatest a 3rd or 4th gen hero? I do not understand people

[Last Son of Krypton]

I vaguely remember during the era of the New52 Superman, that either in the miniseries where "SuperDad" was in hiding letting New52 Superman be the Superman of the DC Universe (Chronicled in a miniseries by Dan Jurgens IIRC correctly. SuperDad wore a black suit similar to the one from the Resurrection tank or whatever it was the post-Crisis Superman was in when he was resurrected after dying at the hands of Doomsday, and did some good work in secret, like stopping Tsunamis from hitting land by running under water), or somewhere early thereafter, that one or both of the Supermen (In those days, both variations on Clark Kent, not Clark and Jon), was noticing that his powers were slightly diminished (Not in the context of the New52 Truth arc, where they obviously were).

I think we discussed it here or elsewhere, and there was some discussion of "Well, maybe it's just SuperDad because he's getting a little older, and maybe his powers are declining a tad as part of the aging process in the same way athletes aren't usually as good at sports at 50 as they were when they were younger.", but someone found a similar reference from either the New52 Superman or Keenan Kong, both of whom were too young for it, prompting us to speculate if this was a planetary issue affecting Kryptonians, or with earth's sun (In the context of the DC Universe), that was going to come to a head later. And then it was dropped.

Ultimately, that may have just been a way of signaling that SuperDad and the New52 Superman were both half of a whole, building to the Superman Reborn story arc a couple years later, or that one of them was dying (Obviously, New52 Superman is the one who died, but maybe it was originally planned to be SuperDad), but I noticed in these 5g rumors, Clark Kent is said to be retiring to Africa after his powers diminish.

Is there any possibility SuperDad noticing his powers weren't quite what they used to be was actually an early seed for 5G (Which was planned but never happened)? Or am I giving them too much credit for long-term planning and foreshadowing?

Nah, no way they planned 5G back in 2015. And Superman: Reborn was a last minute thing (probably Johns came up with it after he started working on DDC in late 2016). Originally, they were going to have Superdad being accepted as the new Superman in town by the rest of the DCU somehow. Making shit along the way.

[Jon Clark]

Exactly how would that work though? And why would want to make comocs' first and greatest a 3rd or 4th gen hero? I do not understand people

He already was a 2nd gen hero since 1986 when they retained the JSA as part of history and made Superman simply the first of the "modern" era. Then Batman began to be shown to precede him in the "modern" era. And the JSA has now put Power Girl as the first Kryptonian by at least 25 years.

[Vordan]

I think it would've collapsed in less than 2 years after the novelty and curiosity fade away.

But this is probably the most planned ahead interconnected storyline DC ever had, of course he had to be dropped, lol.

5G happening and ending with a Crisis/reboot was teased in DDC #12 back in 2019:

I remember that yeah. Clearly a bunch of the high profile old guard did not think this was going to work. Snyder didn’t, Johns obviously didn’t, Tynion wasn’t enthusiastic about it, Williamson was planning on stepping back too. Even Morrison’s attitude was “yeah it will probably go tits up but why get worked up about that? The characters will survive.”

I agree but my previous guess on why Didio was so gung ho to go all in on legacies in contrast to how he had acted towards them before, was because I thought Didio believed this was going to crash and burn. But it crashing and burning would justify his dislike of legacies and then he could use that to do a full proper reboot. With the New 52 he rebooted while keeping a lot of the guys who had worked on the previous continuity, which (shocker) resulted in them fighting him on it and trying to bring old stuff back.

5G therefore would be an initiative to test the viability of legacies and also to purge DC of the old creators. Johns was out, Morrison was out, Snyder was out, Tynion, Williamson and other old continuity junkies probably would have left, Didio was recruiting new talent for 5G to head it all up, so if he decides to reboot again it would be with “his” guys, who would do what he wanted. I thought it was a 5D chess move to set the stage to do “New 52 done right” where nothing of the old universes would carry over next time.

Instead it looks like he was serious about wanting to commit to 5G, but leaving himself an escape hatch if it ended like DC You.

[Bruce Wayne]

I think this insight by Patrick Gerard is invaluable
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-hs-run/page2

DiDio’s favorite modern run is probably Tomasi/Gleason.

Looking at it, 5G is built around Jon and him becoming Superman and the ensuring clash of generations. I think Rebirth and the success of Tomasi/Gleason was what lead to 5G. Except I don't think he understood why people liked Jon and he instead went for some sort of grimdark Civil War/Ultimate ripoff because in his head those apparently are the pinnacle of recent DC and Marvel and how comics should be done.

[Leancarp900]

I remember that yeah. Clearly a bunch of the high profile old guard did not think this was going to work. Snyder didn’t, Johns obviously didn’t, Tynion wasn’t enthusiastic about it, Williamson was planning on stepping back too. Even Morrison’s attitude was “yeah it will probably go tits up but why get worked up about that? The characters will survive.”

I agree but my previous guess on why Didio was so gung ho to go all in on legacies in contrast to how he had acted towards them before, was because I thought Didio believed this was going to crash and burn. But it crashing and burning would justify his dislike of legacies and then he could use that to do a full proper reboot. With the New 52 he rebooted while keeping a lot of the guys who had worked on the previous continuity, which (shocker) resulted in them fighting him on it and trying to bring old stuff back.

5G therefore would be an initiative to test the viability of legacies and also to purge DC of the old creators. Johns was out, Morrison was out, Snyder was out, Tynion, Williamson and other old continuity junkies probably would have left, Didio was recruiting new talent for 5G to head it all up, so if he decides to reboot again it would be with “his” guys, who would do what he wanted. I thought it was a 5D chess move to set the stage to do “New 52 done right” where nothing of the old universes would carry over next time.

Instead it looks like he was serious about wanting to commit to 5G, but leaving himself an escape hatch if it ended like DC You.

DiDio was many things but I don't think he was an evil mastermind with a plan to get rid of all of DC's biggest creators while tanking the sales for five years so nobody could oppose him the next time he tries to get rid of Dick Grayson.

In reality, DiDio always wanted to do 5G. We know Final Crisis was meant to end with all the mainline heroes dying and being replaced with legacy characters (the "old guard" would star in an Ultimate DC instead), but Warner told him no. He didn't hate legacy characters, he hated what he considered were "redundant characters". For example, he thought Dick Grayson was pointless because he wasn't Robin anymore but would never become Batman either, so he was redundant. He was fine with Dick becoming Batman. (His hatred of Nightwing was also to rile up the fans but that's another story).

[godisawesome]

DiDio was many things but I don't think he was an evil mastermind with a plan to get rid of all of DC's biggest creators while tanking the sales for five years so nobody could oppose him the next time he tries to get rid of Dick Grayson.

In reality, DiDio always wanted to do 5G. We know Final Crisis was meant to end with all the mainline heroes dying and being replaced with legacy characters (the "old guard" would star in an Ultimate DC instead), but Warner told him no. He didn't hate legacy characters, he hated what he considered were "redundant characters". For example, he thought Dick Grayson was pointless because he wasn't Robin anymore but would never become Batman either, so he was redundant. He was fine with Dick becoming Batman. (His hatred of Nightwing was also to rile up the fans but that's another story).

I think you’re right; it’s much more plausible that Didio just has a case of both bad taste and weird little personal hypocrisies and arbitrary convictions than it was that he was trying to strategize some kind of combination business move and (anti-)creative thesis.

Everything about 5G screams of an impatient overseer with surreal expectations of the audience and a bad case of myopia and shallowness towards the franchises under his command - in other words, the same traits that Didio already showed well before even Flashpoint and the New 52.

And Didio’s time at the head of DC definitely saw those traits always impact editorial decisions with Superman - Didio kept trying to reboot Superman from the last reboot he did on Superman, all while ignoring the toxic dump that he allowed Berganza to make the Superman editorial office into.

[Thor-Ul]

I remember that yeah. Clearly a bunch of the high profile old guard did not think this was going to work. Snyder didn’t, Johns obviously didn’t, Tynion wasn’t enthusiastic about it, Williamson was planning on stepping back too. Even Morrison’s attitude was “yeah it will probably go tits up but why get worked up about that? The characters will survive.”

I agree but my previous guess on why Didio was so gung ho to go all in on legacies in contrast to how he had acted towards them before, was because I thought Didio believed this was going to crash and burn. But it crashing and burning would justify his dislike of legacies and then he could use that to do a full proper reboot. With the New 52 he rebooted while keeping a lot of the guys who had worked on the previous continuity, which (shocker) resulted in them fighting him on it and trying to bring old stuff back.

5G therefore would be an initiative to test the viability of legacies and also to purge DC of the old creators. Johns was out, Morrison was out, Snyder was out, Tynion, Williamson and other old continuity junkies probably would have left, Didio was recruiting new talent for 5G to head it all up, so if he decides to reboot again it would be with “his” guys, who would do what he wanted. I thought it was a 5D chess move to set the stage to do “New 52 done right” where nothing of the old universes would carry over next time.

Instead it looks like he was serious about wanting to commit to 5G, but leaving himself an escape hatch if it ended like DC You.

I remember than DiDIo promised than Countdown would be 52 done right. I can believe this would had been his intention.

[Bruce Wayne]

And Didio’s time at the head of DC definitely saw those traits always impact editorial decisions with Superman - Didio kept trying to reboot Superman from the last reboot he did on Superman, all while ignoring the toxic dump that he allowed Berganza to make the Superman editorial office into.

It was probably more than Berganza. Berganza was gone during the Johns-Busiek era all the way to the end of the Morrison run. From the creative turnover during that time Matt Idelson was just as bad. If anything I think there was a certain person above two that was more responsible and passing marching orders and editorial edicts that those two then enforced. The departures didn't stop with Berganza even after he got fired. Looking back now, I think these problems were a feature not a flaw.

[Knightsilver]

I think this insight by Patrick Gerard is invaluable
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-hs-run/page2



Looking at it, 5G is built around Jon and him becoming Superman and the ensuring clash of generations. I think Rebirth and the success of Tomasi/Gleason was what lead to 5G. Except I don't think he understood why people liked Jon and he instead went for some sort of grimdark Civil War/Ultimate ripoff because in his head those apparently are the pinnacle of recent DC and Marvel and how comics should be done.

Yep. Didio seemed to have difficulty understanding exactly why readers liked certain characters. And that misunderstanding led to some truly unpopular decisions to put it mildly. This also serves as an explanation as to why Teen Jon is so boring and directionless. His entire reason for existence was this "coming of age/receiving the torch" story...and that absolutely required 5G. Once it was canned...Teen Jon should've gone with it.

[Thor-Ul]

Yep. Didio seemed to have difficulty understanding exactly why readers liked certain characters. And that misunderstanding led to some truly unpopular decisions to put it mildly. This also serves as an explanation as to why Teen Jon is so boring and directionless. His entire reason for existence was this "coming of age/receiving the torch" story...and that absolutely required 5G. Once it was canned...Teen Jon should've gone with it.

As should had gone Bendis' Legion too. bUt at least in the case of Jon it is not a change than it can be undone so soon or abruptly. However I think than the gears are already moving to undo that mistake ( and I would include the corrupt Jor-El in the "things to undo now").

[Myskin]

After reading the entirety of the 5G pitches, I'll say this:
personally speaking, I wouldn't have been necessarily against it in principle: I see the idea of creating a 5-year-long storyline followed a new reboot, and maybe another 5-year-storyline, and later another one, as a relatively new way of conceiving corporate comics (but New52 was already part of it, basically) but not necessarily unsuccessful in terms of sales - not among new generations of readers and not even among old fans, because if there is one detail I have understood about old fans is that no matter how much old fans hate the direction DC is currently taking, they'll never stop buying the books, if nothing else to verbally destroy them on CBR forum (and verbally destroying Didio on forums has always counted zero, basically).

That said, some ideas are fine, others are utterly bizarre or downright silly (in particular Superman more or less inciting the entire JLA to renounce their secret identities), but the fatal flaw - unfortunately - is exactly the main point of the entire storyline, that is this unhealthy obsession with the legacy characters replacing the mentors, which in all honesty doesn't seem entirely like Didio's idea, because it sounds suspiciously as WB's Nth attempt to preserve the characters' copyrights before they fall into the public domain.

As far as I know, in the whole history of DC comics there is ONE successful attempt of a legacy character of some relevance replacing his mentor, and that's Wally West as the Flash. That's it. I don't count Barry Allen as the second Flash and Hal Jordan as the second GL, because they were basically new characters with just some relatively vague ties to their predecessors, and an infinitely better and richer mythology. Not even Kyle Rayner replacing Hal Jordan falls into the same category (provided that Hal Jordan counts as a mentor), because after his "fall" Jordan was the focus of at least 2/3 separate summer crossovers, Kyle Rayner-based storylines and even a series, so basically it was as if he had never left the books. West was the only exception because Allen's demise happened in very specific circumstances, and because Wally West stories introduced a whole new speed force-based mythology which has become the norm for every speedster-related storyline from that moment on. That said, not even Wally West could survive the return of Barry Allen, and I see no reason why way lesser known character, introduced in a moment in which comic books have become just an extremely elitist hobby for few and generally old people could have been successful long-term (unless, as mentioned above, the main concept revolved around rebooting the entire DCU as soon as the legacy characters had become the new face of it).

No matter what they do with them, all of these "heirs" - Luke Fox, Yara Flor, and even Jon Kent - are all more or less redundant. They don't show any remarkable quality which differentiates them from their mentors and taking their place and their name cannot but remind how stronger the mythology of the original characters is. I mean, let's face it - does any current DC reader seriously think that in 5-6 years Yara Flor will still be around? Isn't it more likely that she will be dead, forgotten, in comic book limbo or just present in the stories but basically useless, similarly to what Cassie Sandsmark or even Donna Troy are now? If history has proven anything, it is that legacy characters are incredibly easy to be replaced by OTHER legacy characters. How many Kid Flashes/Robins/Supergirls/Superboys have we had so far?

I am not saying that superheroes will be around forever - quite the contrary, I think that in terms of comics they are becoming more and more dated as time goes by - but as far as I see, IF someone is still reading DC heroes in the future it will be for the original characters, not for some easily replaceable, watered-down copy.

[Thor-Ul]

After reading the entirety of the 5G pitches, I'll say this:
personally speaking, I wouldn't have been necessarily against it in principle: I see the idea of creating a 5-year-long storyline followed a new reboot, and maybe another 5-year-storyline, and later another one, as a relatively new way of conceiving corporate comics (but New52 was already part of it, basically) but not necessarily unsuccessful in terms of sales - not among new generations of readers and not even among old fans, because if there is one detail I have understood about old fans is that no matter how much old fans hate the direction DC is currently taking, they'll never stop buying the books, if nothing else to verbally destroy them on CBR forum (and verbally destroying Didio on forums has always counted zero, basically).

In the option for old fans is tobuy old books. Not everyone read everything in the past and some of them can buy reeditions.

That said, some ideas are fine, others are utterly bizarre or downright silly (in particular Superman more or less inciting the entire JLA to renounce their secret identities), but the fatal flaw - unfortunately - is exactly the main point of the entire storyline, that is this unhealthy obsession with the legacy characters replacing the mentors, which in all honesty doesn't seem entirely like Didio's idea, because it sounds suspiciously as WB's Nth attempt to preserve the characters' copyrights before they fall into the public domain.

It seems probably. Those conglomerates don't like not to possess totally an IP which they can dry out only them.

As far as I know, in the whole history of DC comics there is ONE successful attempt of a legacy character of some relevance replacing his mentor, and that's Wally West as the Flash. That's it. I don't count Barry Allen as the second Flash and Hal Jordan as the second GL, because they were basically new characters with just some relatively vague ties to their predecessors, and an infinitely better and richer mythology. Not even Kyle Rayner replacing Hal Jordan falls into the same category (provided that Hal Jordan counts as a mentor), because after his "fall" Jordan was the focus of at least 2/3 separate summer crossovers, Kyle Rayner-based storylines and even a series, so basically it was as if he had never left the books. West was the only exception because Allen's demise happened in very specific circumstances, and because Wally West stories introduced a whole new speed force-based mythology which has become the norm for every speedster-related storyline from that moment on. That said, not even Wally West could survive the return of Barry Allen, and I see no reason why way lesser known character, introduced in a moment in which comic books have become just an extremely elitist hobby for few and generally old people could have been successful long-term (unless, as mentioned above, the main concept revolved around rebooting the entire DCU as soon as the legacy characters had become the new face of it).

I was going to say than Dick Grayson is also another example of a successful legacy but then I saw than you mean something different. Even now, you can argue than Grayson still is dependent of Batman, meanwhile Wally could exists far apart from Allen.
The argument of DiDIo for the return of Barry Allen then was than you couldn't do a movie about Flash and made him Wally West without explaining who was Barry Allen. From reading in these same forum I learned than DiDio was very into media synergy. If movie Flash was going to be Barry Allen, then in the comics, the official Flash had to be Barry Allen.

No matter what they do with them, all of these "heirs" - Luke Fox, Yara Flor, and even Jon Kent - are all more or less redundant. They don't show any remarkable quality which differentiates them from their mentors and taking their place and their name cannot but remind how stronger the mythology of the original characters is. I mean, let's face it - does any current DC reader seriously think that in 5-6 years Yara Flor will still be around? Isn't it more likely that she will be dead, forgotten, in comic book limbo or just present in the stories but basically useless, similarly to what Cassie Sandsmark or even Donna Troy are now? If history has proven anything, it is that legacy characters are incredibly easy to be replaced by OTHER legacy characters. How many Kid Flashes/Robins/Supergirls/Superboys have we had so far?

That is a correct point. You don't want to read about the son of Superman, you want to read about Superman. Why the next generation can't read about the character than got interest in first ? The silver age Superman was not the son of the previous Superman, essentially it was the same character, but updated to those times. Also I add than the son of is a formula already used in previous stories. The son of Prince Valiant, the son of Tarzan were characters than existed and also had stories. And not many people know about them.

I am not saying that superheroes will be around forever - quite the contrary, I think that in terms of comics they are becoming more and more dated as time goes by - but as far as I see, IF someone is still reading DC heroes in the future it will be for the original characters, not for some easily replaceable, watered-down copy.

Yes, nothing is forever and superheroes as concept in some moment will fall ou of taste. And the ones who will survive will be the original versions or at least the quintessential versions.

[Myskin]

I was going to say than Dick Grayson is also another example of a successful legacy but then I saw than you mean something different. Even now, you can argue than Grayson still is dependent of Batman, meanwhile Wally could exists far apart from Allen.

Dick Grayson is one of those extremely rare cases in which a beloved character evolves into a slightly different, but equally beloved character and his second career is as successful as the first one (I'd also include in the same range Batgirl/Oracle, but we all know what happened in the end, for - quite frankly - not entirely comprehensible reasons). But he never became the Batman if not for a very limited amount of time.

Wally West is in an extremely tricky position. I don't have anything against him, he's The Flash I grew up with, but I kind of see Didio's point about him - even without taking media synergy into account, Barry Allen is more iconic - as in, he has a more self-contained, clear origin and mythology. But Wally's contribution to the Flash mythos was so strong that in the books they took a direction which is the opposite of of the JL cartoon, in which Wally was basically a happy-go-lucky Barry Allen: Barry Allen is now THE Flash, but they included in his mythology large chunks of Wally West-related concepts. Which may have been successful for Barry, but left Wally West more or less without a real purpose - as the last decade or so of comic books have shown, it's a real struggle to find something for him to do, no matter how vaguely enjoyable some runs may have been.

Just for discussion's sake I'll say that media synergy and diversity may soon put John Stewart in another bizarre situation - second fiddle to Hal Jordan, no real personal mythology but an interesting, well-defined characterization which may make him THE Green Lantern of the DCU cinematic universe quite soon and maybe in the comics as well, but only if they followed the same direction of JL TAS by taking the large GL mythology (Sinestro, the Guardians) and transplanting John Stewart - instead of Hal Jordan - into the center of it.

But again, these are all very specific cases and we shouldn't forget that both Wally West and John Stewart were created when DC books were still relatively popular and relevant (John Stewart was created just 12-13 after Hal Jordan, which sounds incredible if you think that the entirety of the New52 line was launched in 2011 and has been more or less entirely erased from existence). The vast majority of all the other replacements/sidekicks/heirs - including Kyle Rayner, Jessica Cruz, Simon Baz - are all currently struggling to find a purpose in-story and they are not even remotely comparable to the iconic seven in terms of popularity, so what's the point of putting even newer characters like Jon Kent and Jace Fox on the pedestal hoping that they'll somehow appear better than their mentors?

Also: even if legacy is an important element of the DCU and there have been exceptionally good comics about it - from Starman to some JSA runs - we must keep in mind that the vast majority of characters like Robin, Speedy, etc, have always been intended as sidekicks, not as heirs. The dynastic element is relevant for new characters created with the specific idea of legacy in mind, like Jack Knight or Stargirl, or for now-secondary heroes who are clearly depicted as part of a past, somehow removed generation, like Jay Garrick or Wildcat. Creating, or transforming a character with the specific purpose of making him or her the replacement of another character with a huge, larger, way better-known mythology is a losing battle.