Ruins of Khazan - A Rumbles RPG - Sign Up/System Test

[Sharpandpointies]

Rather saddened by all of this, TBH.

[Postmania]

Yeah it's a bit of a downturn when I think of some of the possibilities brimming here. I guess it'll be interesting to see what I can do to make what ending Jane does get here as good as it can be.

Also I think I'm going to try and go out big and use everything I can before it ends I suppose, probably will spend a RUM point to see what it's like.

[Nik Hasta]

Rather saddened by all of this, TBH.

It is what it is, sadly. Sometimes games don't got the legs for it and the board is definitely less partial to RP than it once was. Plus traffic as a whole is down.

To begin with a sort of preliminary post-mortem on the game, I had a few thoughts that I'll just get down.

Onboarding and System Development

So, Ruins is a much more developed and system intensive game than the community on Rumbles is used to. This is both a major strength and a major weakness. On reflection, while it was very useful for me to be able to build the system publicly - I got a lot of good feedback and use-cases that informed design choices - I think it made things seem a bit more intimidating than they actually are. I think I lost a lot of people when the first major Patch dropped and completely upended several established conventions and made some builds invalid or, at minimum, made them require signficant overhauling to be system compliant once more. This was a roadblock that many players never cleared, and not unreasonably so.

Once you've learnt/read the initial core mechanics, the norm is that the game should remain largely stable barring major bugs or exploits being discovered. Either that or, as in the case with other RPGs on the board, you can run on the basis of GM checking and approval. This is good for speeding up character creation but it puts a lot of pressure on the GM. can fractionalise people's experiences of the game to a high degree and make combat encounters much more difficult to balance out.

Looking at the system in its current form, from the core concepts on up, Ruins is a system that prioritises player expression with a very open-ended set of combat/build mechanics that supports a number of build types while remaining fairly balanced moment to moment. One of the core design and setting concepts was that of "infinity," describing both the city and kinds of experience you can have and the kinds of characters you can generate within the build engine. I'll be getting into this more when I talk about NPC development as a whole, but I was quite pleased with how you could build unique systems and playstyles and the system would be robust enough that it was quite hard to make incredibly broken things.

This is good for players because, it allows them to bring anyone and anything to the table. You want to play a long range sniper with a keep-away style? You can do that. You want to be a glass cannon wizard archetype? We can handle that. You want to be the biggest unstoppable bruiser you can be and get up in people's faces? Look no further. Of all the parts of the game, I think the Trait and Affinity systems are the best parts at facilitating this philosophy.

Traits allow for truly unique, while sensibly limited, systems and builds. Having the +5 Passive or +10 Active rule makes for simple assessment of the mechanical effect of the Trait and keeps it within acceptable limits.

However, the flipside of this is that you need a decent level of system familiarity to be able to master those mechanics and build what you want. I think if Ruins had just dropped as it now, with none of the development that makes up the bulk of this thread, I think I could present these mechanics in such a way that many players wouldn't have felt as discouraged or lost when trying to create their characters and may have stuck around.

That said, I couldn't have gotten the system to the current state without the input and situations that were prompted by the character creation process.

The other side of the open-ness of the game is the setting. Ruins is an openly multiversal game with the capacity to bring together whatever kind of character a player may wish to explore. However, this comes with a challenge for the GM in the sense of maintaining tone and minimising dissonance. We see this in the current cast with Ella and Nemo being quite whimsical while Krys and Jane are much more grounded tonally speaking.

I think, for the next game, I am going to work on creating a more evocative and specific setting with a less open system that minimises the intimidation factor. Classes, pre-set skills, pre-loaded background elements and so on. Khazan has functionally infinite potential lore but given that all players have just arrived and the city is both chaotic and deserted, it's hard to come up with stuff that will grab a majority of players because you have to generate that connection in-game.

Whereas, with a more specific setting, you can just say things like; "You see the Chief of the village, who is a friend of your family," and you have already established a couple of vectors for the player to approach the interaction with that you, as GM, can plan for. That intro suggests a hierarchy which naturally generates conflict depending on how the player choose to interpret that relationship.

So, expect more lore and more comprehensible system next time for easier onboarding and character creation.

[Postmania]

I'll miss the more open elements of the system in the next one. That said I don't disagree with some of that. I did have faith that you had a plot cooking up in there because of how realized the setting seemed to be on this side of things, but also wasn't sure if I quite glimpsed it yet in game.

Building the system and going along with changes was fun for me in some ways personally, but also that's the fighting game player in me lol, I'm used to patches and get hype for that on some level which not everyone does

[Sharpandpointies]

Onboarding and System Development

So, Ruins is a much more developed and system intensive game than the community on Rumbles is used to. This is both a major strength and a major weakness. On reflection, while it was very useful for me to be able to build the system publicly - I got a lot of good feedback and use-cases that informed design choices - I think it made things seem a bit more intimidating than they actually are. I think I lost a lot of people when the first major Patch dropped and completely upended several established conventions and made some builds invalid or, at minimum, made them require signficant overhauling to be system compliant once more. This was a roadblock that many players never cleared, and not unreasonably so.

This is definitely a possibility.

Looking at the system in its current form, from the core concepts on up, Ruins is a system that prioritises player expression with a very open-ended set of combat/build mechanics that supports a number of build types while remaining fairly balanced moment to moment. One of the core design and setting concepts was that of "infinity," describing both the city and kinds of experience you can have and the kinds of characters you can generate within the build engine. I'll be getting into this more when I talk about NPC development as a whole, but I was quite pleased with how you could build unique systems and playstyles and the system would be robust enough that it was quite hard to make incredibly broken things.

I think you hit the points here.

The other side of the open-ness of the game is the setting. Ruins is an openly multiversal game with the capacity to bring together whatever kind of character a player may wish to explore. However, this comes with a challenge for the GM in the sense of maintaining tone and minimising dissonance. We see this in the current cast with Ella and Nemo being quite whimsical while Krys and Jane are much more grounded tonally speaking.

One of the ways around this is a discussion of MOOD AND THEMES with the players beforehand, and vetting of characters. I don't know if you planned for an 'anything goes' thing, or a serious thing, or a comedic thing. Your first post seems to indicate something more serious, more grim. In that case, it might have been better to make that point from the outset.

Regardless of what you had planned, that's basically the point - without discussion of mood and such, it's very possible to get all kinds of different characters who don't really match up well in RP and such. No fault there, no 'this way is better'. But that can happen.

I think, for the next game, I am going to work on creating a more evocative and specific setting with a less open system that minimises the intimidation factor. Classes, pre-set skills, pre-loaded background elements and so on. Khazan has functionally infinite potential lore but given that all players have just arrived and the city is both chaotic and deserted, it's hard to come up with stuff that will grab a majority of players because you have to generate that connection in-game.

For me, that's what the RP is for. If I look back at my posts, there's a whole lot of trying to engage with other characters, asking them questions, that kind of thing. I find that much more...how to put it, real, creating those kinds of connections than having one baked in and described. For me, anyway. Mileage, etc.

Basically, I feel at least part of player engagement MUST come from the players. Here, you provided a big, open world, and we knew that coming into the game. So we should have also known that a big chunk of engagement...needs to come from us.

[Sharkerbob]

That's a good break down, and I'm glad we were able to help you iron the system out, Nik.

I won't claim any real insight on how these things can or would more optimally be run. I can say the temptations of infinity can, for some, lead to paralysis of choice. I feel like timing of my own creative mindset at the time is mostly what got me to commit to Nemo and Rae versus making two dozen possible characters and rolling a die to see which one I'd play and being hit by FOMO from the first post. Regardless, from what I've seen of kitchen sink sandbox premises, there's usually a big burst of enthusiasm, followed by a quick drop off once the creative high wears off. I dunno if that really applies here, but I do feel like, even if it doesn't get as much initial interest, games where there's a much more upfront premise at least put everyone on a more even footing for why they're all there.


Anyway, thoughts from my own perspective, I guess. None of what follows is a dig on anyone, just my own feelings on my own approach.

Given the upfront system complexity, I probably wasn't the best player to join, nor did I probably pick the best character(s) to run this through, despite the obvious multiversal connections. The flexibility of your system is great for someone who wants to specialize, but my stubborn focus in wanting to be the Red Mage did make for an interesting challenge. The update patches definitely helped a lot with opening up the possibilities. At the same time, the whole Synch system with the stats was a stuck point for me, because it felt like trying to adjust one stat a bit to enable one thing, meant breaking three others in the process. We got it ironed out, but still.

Likewise, even for as short as the action has been, I kept finding myself thinking, "Well, if I want my character(s) to actually do anything worthwhile, they're basically going to be heavy-bleeding mana every encounter." Which, I was fine with crippling them down enough to work within the system, but it did give me pause on my actions. Of course, it was my choice to speck Nemo's powers for utilitarian versatility over combat efficiency, so that's on me. The system feels very geared towards Fighting Game sensibilities, and maybe it isn't and I'm just interpreting it that way, but I didn't engage with that paradigm very well.

It is funny to me because Nemo isn't even that powerful (claims by Rae to the contrary), she's just versatile, in a setting where most superhumans are one-trick ponies, or omnipotent gods whom she couldn't even make blink on her best day. But I think that was part of the issue. I ported in an extant character that was already settled in my head one way, and tried to cram them into the system, rather than build a character from scratch with the system in mind.

Funny, too, her ending up being a comedy duo of characters was more me trying something unusual to my instincts. I was definitely trying to get away from making yet another self-loathing sad-sack, of which I've written way too many of those the past few years, or the reserved personality-of-a-brick archetype a lot of my characters unfortunately default to.

I also feel like by coming in late, I missed out on some very crucial bonding that went on in the first couple pages of posts. At least Jane and Krys seemed to pretty quickly form a tight, dramatic bond, quickly joined by Trevor. Ella went ahead and Vana broke from the party very early. Even Kinu, who came later, had a natural force of personality that invited engagement. Meanwhile, Nemo and Rae felt kind of just along for the ride. Like, yeah, they might have some personal issues to work through, but nothing overt to the goings on of the game or campaign story, so like, I can try to make them funny, because there's not enough dramatic hook for me to grind into (yet, anyway; Poster Persona Sharkerbob would have really hit them in their existential crisis lobe, probably). I'm not saying it was this way, but I guess I didn't feel like my characters actually vibed with the rest all that well, or at least didn't really get the opportunity to.

Not accusing anyone of shutting them out at all, everyone was pretty inclusive with their writing, and I tried to be in kind. I'm talking about vibes. I think this is largely just the tone issue Nik mentioned. Jane, Krys, and Trevor clicked dramatically, and Kinu at least gelled well with Trevor. And Nemo and Rae also happened to be there, tagging along for basically a lack of any other idea of what to do. Really, they had already accomplished their goal from the very first post: escaping the Scribed Lands into the Greater Multiverse. Good for them! Now what? Get back to the Scribed Lands, sure, eventually, but right now, let's just take a mosey through the multiverse! Oh hey, look, some people, wonder what they're all up to...

I think probably if there'd been more time with Ella and Cass, the two of them might have clicked with Nemo and Rae in a similar way, and we'd kind of have two co-operative cliques within the group, Silly Team and Serious Team, and that could have lead to some amusing interactions all throughout.

I could also be overanalyzing after the fact, though. Anyway, I dunno how well I could have kept engaged in the long term, but I think everyone wrote their stuff well, good characterization and creativity.

Alright, I'll stop DVD commentarying.

[Postmania]

I'll say quickly that although I do agree that there was some tonal flows that worked better than others, I do think that if we had a bit more time, or I guess a big event happening, I think that could have been ironed out or funneled into something more consistent for all of us. I feel like something like this big battle, or more things like it, and potentially interacting with some other npcs together could have pulled us all together. Not sure what could have been done there. I guess the point about establishing the tone more firmly might be a part of it as Sharp mentioned to make things work better from the start, though the hill as it stands wasn't insurmountable.

Ultimately, I think the bigger factor here was more as mentioned, related to the fact that life just got in the way for some of us, which I don't blame anyone for. If we could have had a bit more interaction (I know I wanted to try and bounce things off Ella and Kinu more at times but life delays prevented responses/the whole interaction from happening) I think things would have worked out.

Anyways, in terms of what could have been, I mentioned before, but I was definitely interested in how Cthulhu or Beadle's characters would have interacted with everyone. I had an idea in terms of Beadle's character that depending on how visible that being was in terms of being this huge conglomerate of souls and depending on how they acted that Jane would have been either fascinated or greatly disturbed by them in turn.

Edit: Actually I will add that the sync system, while it does allow for greater power through something like strength going well with durability, does create interesting situations where if for some reason you didn't want to focus on stats that synced more obviously together you could end up spending more points for what felt like a smaller power as Shark mentioned. You wanted to go to th natural paths which did hit builds at times if you were going for a more lean build. Not everyone has to be optimized though, and I assume there's no way for this to really be solved with a system like that, but I did notice it.

And in terms of infinity builds, I basically wouldn't have been able to make Jane without it I think, but also I think that if I hadn't made Jane I might have had to spend more time tinkering a bunch. I know that I considered alternate chars after Jane/if she died somehow, but few of them really stuck. On the other hand, I do like making character builds so, hmm. Mixed bag maybe for me, but more heavily on the positive.

[MrSandman]

I think probably if there'd been more time with Ella and Cass, the two of them might have clicked with Nemo and Rae in a similar way, and we'd kind of have two co-operative cliques within the group, Silly Team and Serious Team, and that could have lead to some amusing interactions all throughout.

I could also be overanalyzing after the fact, though. Anyway, I dunno how well I could have kept engaged in the long term, but I think everyone wrote their stuff well, good characterization and creativity.

Alright, I'll stop DVD commentarying.

Its difficult to put my own feelings into words on the whole experience, but I will definately way without a doubt that I well and truly fucked up in that. I had originally intended Ella to go through the gate in my post because I had thought that the initial meeting was going to take place on the other side of the gate rather then right before it. So I ended up cutting myself out of a large chuck of the initial character dialog and banter without really wanting to.

So if I could give any advise at the outcome....keep ya party together before you let me loose, cause trying to slip the banter in on the road is a lot more difficult. ;_;

[Sharkerbob]

I'll say quickly that although I do agree that there was some tonal flows that worked better than others, I do think that if we had a bit more time, or I guess a big event happening, I think that could have been ironed out or funneled into something more consistent for all of us. I feel like something like this big battle, or more things like it, and potentially interacting with some other npcs together could have pulled us all together. Not sure what could have been done there. I guess the point about establishing the tone more firmly might be a part of it as Sharp mentioned to make things work better from the start, though the hill as it stands wasn't insurmountable.

I could have done better on this myself, reading the room more before diving back in. I missed a lot of discussion throughout the thread while I was still dropped out. A lot of it was system discussion though, and admittedly, I have always engaged poorly with discussing crunch. :B

But, true, things might've ironed out smoother eventually.

I did think the difference in godly relationships between some of the characters was an interesting point of discussion!

Ultimately, I think the bigger factor here was more as mentioned, related to the fact that life just got in the way for some of us, which I don't blame anyone for. If we could have had a bit more interaction (I know I wanted to try and bounce things off Ella and Kinu more at times but life delays prevented responses/the whole interaction from happening) I think things would have worked out.

Real Life Syndrome do be hittin' like that.

Its difficult to put my own feelings into words on the whole experience, but I will definately way without a doubt that I well and truly fucked up in that. I had originally intended Ella to go through the gate in my post because I had thought that the initial meeting was going to take place on the other side of the gate rather then right before it. So I ended up cutting myself out of a large chuck of the initial character dialog and banter without really wanting to.

So if I could give any advise at the outcome....keep ya party together before you let me loose, cause trying to slip the banter in on the road is a lot more difficult. ;_;

Mistakes can happen. Didn't mean to rub it in there. : (

[MrSandman]

Mistakes can happen. Didn't mean to rub it in there. : (

Naww, nothing rubbed in that I ain't rubbing in myself.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'll say quickly that although I do agree that there was some tonal flows that worked better than others, I do think that if we had a bit more time, or I guess a big event happening, I think that could have been ironed out or funneled into something more consistent for all of us. I feel like something like this big battle, or more things like it, and potentially interacting with some other npcs together could have pulled us all together. Not sure what could have been done there. I guess the point about establishing the tone more firmly might be a part of it as Sharp mentioned to make things work better from the start, though the hill as it stands wasn't insurmountable.

Agreed with all of this. I feel we COULD have made a go of things and made it work - some slight shifts in characters and approach and tone to find something that's more close to a middle ground could have easily been carried out in-game, in RP.

Ultimately, I think the bigger factor here was more as mentioned, related to the fact that life just got in the way for some of us, which I don't blame anyone for. If we could have had a bit more interaction (I know I wanted to try and bounce things off Ella and Kinu more at times but life delays prevented responses/the whole interaction from happening) I think things would have worked out.

This, this, this. More interaction builds foundations, which keeps interest going. And that - unless everyone is combat-centric - comes from the RP, not the fights.

Anyways, in terms of what could have been, I mentioned before, but I was definitely interested in how Cthulhu or Beadle's characters would have interacted with everyone. I had an idea in terms of Beadle's character that depending on how visible that being was in terms of being this huge conglomerate of souls and depending on how they acted that Jane would have been either fascinated or greatly disturbed by them in turn.

I feel that had we gotten one-to-two more people, things might have gone a whole lot better. Especially had they been CoR or Beadle.

Edit: Actually I will add that the sync system, while it does allow for greater power through something like strength going well with durability, does create interesting situations where if for some reason you didn't want to focus on stats that synced more obviously together you could end up spending more points for what felt like a smaller power as Shark mentioned. You wanted to go to th natural paths which did hit builds at times if you were going for a more lean build. Not everyone has to be optimized though, and I assume there's no way for this to really be solved with a system like that, but I did notice it.

*grins* While SKI is one of the more useful stats, it Syncs with NOTHING. Believe me, I noticed that lack.

Its difficult to put my own feelings into words on the whole experience, but I will definately way without a doubt that I well and truly fucked up in that. I had originally intended Ella to go through the gate in my post because I had thought that the initial meeting was going to take place on the other side of the gate rather then right before it. So I ended up cutting myself out of a large chuck of the initial character dialog and banter without really wanting to.

So if I could give any advise at the outcome....keep ya party together before you let me loose, cause trying to slip the banter in on the road is a lot more difficult. ;_;

Also this. That was a mistake, but an honest one, man. *shrugs* Such things happen, but yeah. Keep. The. Party. Together. In your case, a mistake happens, you kinda got stuck with it. Shame that.

Van wanders off right off the bat, very deliberately, and...what? RP's with themselves? It's not a good way to build a solid foundation in the group, even if it IS in character (one reason why I really dislike Moody Loner characters - not just 'loners', I"m talking about a specific kind of loner as characterized by Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, original X-men movies).

There have been a few comments about Jane and Krys and Trevor getting some really good bonding happening at the start. Part of that was opportunity - we were there (as was Van, and that didn't work out at all). Which might have helped the others, had they been there as well.

I feel part of it is how Post and I approached things. Not tooting a horn or anything, I just feel this is critical. We showed a whole lot of interest in each other's characters, and in Trevor. We asked one another buttloads of questions, we reacted and commented on pretty much everything the other character said, we had emotions about one another's situations (well, as much as Jane could at the time, in-character ^_^), we helped each other off the bat, bounced ideas off each other, etc. Based on everything I've seen in RP before, this is one of the best ways to actually create a good group, to get that feeling of 'us against the world' or whatever, where people feel part of something important and bigger than just themselves. Where it's not just a bunch of characters heading to a destination, it's a bunch of people who see each other and are intertwined, who have a relationship, whatever that relationship happens to be.

And that, I feel, was the big thing that worked between Krys, Jane, and Trevor: showing interest (of whatever kind - like, this wasn't 'romantic' between them at all) in the other character(s), that going both ways.

Naww, nothing rubbed in that I ain't rubbing in myself.

I don't feel there should be recriminations, man, self or otherwise. Was an honest mistake. ^_^

[Sharkerbob]

There have been a few comments about Jane and Krys and Trevor getting some really good bonding happening at the start. Part of that was opportunity - we were there (as was Van, and that didn't work out at all). Which might have helped the others, had they been there as well.

I feel part of it is how Post and I approached things. Not tooting a horn or anything, I just feel this is critical. We showed a whole lot of interest in each other's characters, and in Trevor. We asked one another buttloads of questions, we reacted and commented on pretty much everything the other character said, we had emotions about one another's situations (well, as much as Jane could at the time, in-character ^_^), we helped each other off the bat, bounced ideas off each other, etc. Based on everything I've seen in RP before, this is one of the best ways to actually create a good group, to get that feeling of 'us against the world' or whatever, where people feel part of something important and bigger than just themselves. Where it's not just a bunch of characters heading to a destination, it's a bunch of people who see each other and are intertwined, who have a relationship, whatever that relationship happens to be.

Yeah, this is something I definitely fell short on, both from being absent for the majority of the sign up period, and, well, it's definitely been a flaw of mine even in previous RPs (for whatever various reasons), I've not done well gelling with the player group during the character creation phase. If the chance arises again, it's something I'll try harder on.

And that, I feel, was the big thing that worked between Krys, Jane, and Trevor: showing interest (of whatever kind - like, this wasn't 'romantic' between them at all) in the other character(s), that going both ways.

Timing was a big part of missing out on it. The game was just about kicking off when I decided to parachute back into the sign-ups, and then before we could really get our characters talking, we were heading for the gate. But also, again, I could have done better trying to make a character that gelled with the group more, etc.

Ah, well. Lessons learned.

[Sharpandpointies]

To be clear, most of what I'm talking about is about the RP in-game - the showing of interest, the having our characters ask questions, opinions, reacting on everything the other character said and pursuing those things in conversation (and with Trevor as well). Yeah, Post and I showed interest in the characters and talked a lot during creation, but I was referring to the RP between the characters. It built real connections, I feel.

ALSO to be clear - this is important - I'm just addressing 'why I feel Krys and Jane and Trevor forged that strong initial relationship'. I'm not saying 'everyone else should have done that!' or whatever. Just...addressing that observation with my thoughts on it ^_^.

[Sharkerbob]

Ah, I see. Yeah, makes sense.

[Postmania]

Pretty much cosign what Sharp said.

I think there was definitely a version of Jane that would have fallen pretty easily into the stand-offish loner thing, but I tried to give her reasons to talk to everyone if I could. I think it's just because my style of playing RPGs is just to try and go everywhere and do everything, which in a videogame is just breaking into every locked place but in a RPG like more naturally means trying to get fun interactions with other players, which doesn't really work if my character is not very talkative (or as I felt early on and tried to work on, not emotive enough, which is why for a robot I tried to come up with things that show hints of emotion even with more limited range of expression and also Jane not exactly being an open book all the time.)

I think I might have overdid some of the emoting at times, but fortunately I felt like I generally didn't screw up too much with the moments when Jane showed the biggest emotions, just some of the smaller asides.