Ruins of Khazan - A Rumbles RPG - Sign Up/System Test

[Sharpandpointies]

I have a thought regarding persistent techniques in general. One idea to better balance them is to make the initial outlay of energy equal to that of normal honed and epic techniques. The benefit of the persistent techniques should not be the initial outlay. It should be the fact that you can maintain them, round over round, at a lower price. By making the initial outlay of energy equal to a normal honed or epic technique, without getting the same high levels of bonuses as a one time Honed or epic technique, you bring things more into balance. I feel this would help.

No, they don’t provide the same level of bonuses, but that’s the point. They’re not as good in the short term, for the same energy price, but they have the benefit of use round over around.

I think some of your concerns regarding that might disappear if you do this.

[Sharpandpointies]

And if that isn’t enough, make people pay maintenance for the first round as well. Might be excessive, through, especially with that whole ‘other techniques also become more expensive’.

[Sharpandpointies]

Anima does this. Rather, persistent techniques simply cost more for the same bonuses.

[Postmania]

A couple of notes for you to consider.

- Sharp wanted to just have a Technique in isolation that did for Stealth, this is harder to accomplish because the Stealth stat is a bit harder to dramatically increase with mere stat adjustments. Using a Trait allows for much more creative and impartial adjustments to your build as they are intended to provide you an avenue for unique mechanics.

- As noted like a few pages back, Stealth as a Social Stat is product of AGI, SKI and the Body Affinity modifier. Pushing stats into AGI would yield the most dramatic results as it has the larger effect. If Jane were to put a Stack on AGI and use a Honed Technique (+40 AGI) her Stealth jumps from the "Good" bracket to "Exceptional".

- The Vanishing Arts example I posted when I created the DRAMA System for you is how I envision a combat based Stealth Technique working. As it's an action that relies on the enemy not noticing you, it would fall under Mind Affinity hence why it uses CHR. You also have the Disinterest status effect which specifically makes the targets unable to see you. Put that on an AoE Technique and you have functional cloaking via a psychic effect.

Happy to discuss further but that's about all the developments for combat Stealth we have at the minute.

It's worth a thought. Not quite what I'm thinking of, but worth a thought if I decide to put some into CHR for it.

But also realistically...a ways off bc this is asking for another trait for CHR increase at very least in addition to any technique slots getting added by leveling anyways.

Also I have another idea relating to Jane "dying" and "resurrecting" (and with a potential nasty side effect for an enemies nearby) which might be a bit more thematic (as much as stealth is cool to me) which I might end up going for anyway.

[Nik Hasta]

…clearly I keep breaking the system.

It's not you specifically, the things I have noticed are more universal.

I have a thought regarding persistent techniques in general. One idea to better balance them is to make the initial outlay of energy equal to that of normal honed and epic techniques. The benefit of the persistent techniques should not be the initial outlay. It should be the fact that you can maintain them, round over round, at a lower price. By making the initial outlay of energy equal to a normal honed or epic technique, without getting the same high levels of bonuses as a one time Honed or epic technique, you bring things more into balance. I feel this would help.

No, they don’t provide the same level of bonuses, but that’s the point. They’re not as good in the short term, for the same energy price, but they have the benefit of use round over around.

I think some of your concerns regarding that might disappear if you do this.

And if that isn’t enough, make people pay maintenance for the first round as well. Might be excessive, through, especially with that whole ‘other techniques also become more expensive’.

My issue with Persistent Techniques is less about the boost they give and the ENR costs and more to do with how they function with status effects. For Body and Spirit, the status effects tables were largely created within the parameters of single use Techniques, I didn't think too much about the implication of putting effects on to a Persistent format. For some of the basic stuff; first wave offensive Spirit stuff (Bleed, Surge, Flurry, Blunt, etc.) these are all pretty balanced. Attacks made under the influence of a Persistent Technique with one of those effects applied gain the effect. Transfigure was bit crazy but I figure that the damage requirements to get the effect to proc would limit its utility.

That's all pretty manageable and self explanatory, some kinda wild shit in there but it's not game breaking. The issues look a bit more serious when you have stuff like Zen or, over in the Body Table, Uncanny Dodge for example. Those are incredibly potent abilities that dramatically empower the user and can synergise with certain kinds of builds really well. It feels a bit wild to let them to be in play for multiple turns at a cost of a mere 5 or 10 ENR per turn. Also there's stuff like Purge where I'm like... what does that even mean if it gets put on a Persistent Technique? Is that a tacit immunity to all Lesser Effects from the Spirit Table and Greater Effects are all downgraded? That's again, pretty insanely powerful for 5 ENR a turn.

What I am currently thinking is that applying Effects to Techniques may come with a cost of lowering the associated stat boost by a given amount and/or raising ENR costs. I'm also going to have a good think about classifications and allocations on all existing effects and see if I can't come up with a better way of categorising and limiting them.

My other thought is that maybe effects should only be one-shot Techniques universally. Then I would bring up the stat boost levels of Persistent Techniques to be closer to their one-shot counterparts. Then the trade off is that you spend more ENR up front but get effects or you get a solid boost that you can maintain.

That might be the simplest option... hmm... still thinking about it.

It's worth a thought. Not quite what I'm thinking of, but worth a thought if I decide to put some into CHR for it.

But also realistically...a ways off bc this is asking for another trait for CHR increase at very least in addition to any technique slots getting added by leveling anyways.

Also I have another idea relating to Jane "dying" and "resurrecting" (and with a potential nasty side effect for an enemies nearby) which might be a bit more thematic (as much as stealth is cool to me) which I might end up going for anyway.

Fair enough, sounds like a fun idea!

[Sharpandpointies]

5 more energy per status effect seems a good start!

Or make it only minor status effects - no majors.

[Nik Hasta]

5 more energy per status effect seems a good start!

Or make it only minor status effects - no majors.

Or, as I edited as you posted, just no effects on Persistent Techniques at all but the boost is a little better.

Hmm... Lesser Techniques only might be a good step. I would need to categorise the Defensive Effects into Lesser and Greater for Body.

[Sharpandpointies]

Alternate possibility: minor status effects cost five more major status effects cost 10 more, but those costs are not paid per turn. Instead, they are paid each and every time the status effect comes into play. I.e., if the lesser Purge effect blocks five lesser status effects that turn, it cost 25 energy.

[Sharpandpointies]

With this idea, players can literally overload themselves /become overloaded by too many attacks.

[Sharpandpointies]

Really it breaks down to what approach you want to take. Number one: this kind of thing is outside of the balance of gain balance, and should be impossible. In which case, you want to legislate rules that will stop it from happening.

Or, number two: these things are not outside of the realm of possibility in the game, but should be extremely hard to do. for that one, you go with increased energy cost. You put it ridiculously expensive so that is very hard to do, and very hard to maintain for any significant length of time. And then it can be done, but only people who have the requisite amount of energy and power, i.e. high-level people, can do this.

[Nik Hasta]

Alternate possibility: minor status effects cost five more major status effects cost 10 more, but those costs are not paid per turn. Instead, they are paid each and every time the status effect comes into play. I.e., if the lesser Purge effect blocks five lesser status effects that turn, it cost 25 energy.

That would work for some things but it creates questions around an effect like Rage for example. Rage provides stat changes (+ and - in various areas) so it's "always on" and cuts damage in half if every hit taken while in Rage.

[Sharpandpointies]

Then every time someone takes a hit, moar energy. Or make up special rules for rage.

[Sharpandpointies]

Also, defensive body techniques have disappeared. Do we have a new link?

[Nik Hasta]

Also, defensive body techniques have disappeared. Do we have a new link?

Link is on the first page...

Oh, added a link to the Offensive Body Techs post.

Link here: Defensive Body Techniques Guide here

[Sharpandpointies]

Uncanny dodge, since that came up, is a perfect defense. Perfect defenses are ALWAYS tricky to balance (similarly perfect attacks).