A.X.E.: X-Men #1 Spoilers/Reviews

[Lukmendes]

Finally got around to reading this and while I'm not the biggest Jean fan I thought it was a good read. As far as why Jean failed and someone like Doom passed imo comes down to the Gameworld comment. Jean still doesn't get that there is no scoreboard or getting in the "black" as there is nothing that will ever make up for the lives she took. Doom on the other hand is aware of this and not only owns it but would do it again if given the chance.

I mean, the problem is that the Celestial judges people for stuff like their actions and how much the characters are hypocrites, Shawn didn't pass because he's a piece of shit, and Daredevil and Destiny didn't pass because they're hypocrites.

Doom is both a piece of shit and a hypocrite, and he gets to pass... Yeah.

The Celestial's opinions are a bit messy, is my point lol.

[ExodusCloak]

The Celestial is making you judge yourself. Which is why some pass and some fail despite having committed the same or worse crime. But belief and genuine conviction seems to allow you to pass. Any doubt and you fail.

[Huntsman Spider]

Finally got around to reading this and while I'm not the biggest Jean fan I thought it was a good read. As far as why Jean failed and someone like Doom passed imo comes down to the Gameworld comment. Jean still doesn't get that there is no scoreboard or getting in the "black" as there is nothing that will ever make up for the lives she took. Doom on the other hand is aware of this and not only owns it but would do it again if given the chance.

As Lukmendes pointed out --- with helpful pictures sourced from the comic itself, no less --- Doom really is that kind of bastard, whatever pretensions of "honor" or "nobility" he'd like to make, which likely factors into why the Celestial let him pass, because the Celestial is ultimately not as different from or as superior to those it judges as it would like to believe it is.

[Steroid]

The point I am trying to make is simply yes Doom is a bastard and a hypocrite but he also doesn't apologize for it. His convictions with himself and his actions are absolute.

[Lukmendes]

The Celestial is making you judge yourself. Which is why some pass and some fail despite having committed the same or worse crime. But belief and genuine conviction seems to allow you to pass. Any doubt and you fail.

The Celestial makes you fail if you try to justify yourself but are a hypocrite while doing it:



(Immortal X-Men#6)

An unwillingness to change also seems to be a reason to fail:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png



(AXE: Death to the mutants#2)

As Lukmendes pointed out --- with helpful pictures sourced from the comic itself, no less --- Doom really is that kind of bastard, whatever pretensions of "honor" or "nobility" he'd like to make, which likely factors into why the Celestial let him pass, because the Celestial is ultimately not as different from or as superior to those it judges as it would like to believe it is.

Reminder his reason for giving a thumbs up to Thor is "His hammer says he's worthy, so he must be worthy":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...66/unknown.png

(AXE: Judgement Day#4)

Also in the same issue he decides to not judge a kid:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

He's basically saying "I'm not gonna judge a kid, I'm not a monster", at the same time, he will kill the planet, kids included, because other people didn't pass...

So yeah, shit like this shows he's a hypocrite, and a dumbass, and again, Jean herself in AXE: X-Men points out he's a hypocrite lol.

The point I am trying to make is simply yes Doom is a bastard and a hypocrite but he also doesn't apologize for it. His convictions with himself and his actions are absolute.

But so is Shawn (At least according to himself in Immortal X-Men#6), and he didn't pass even though he was being consistent to himself and proud of being a piece of shit:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...22/unknown.png



Unless the justification here is basically "Doom passes because he judges himself as worthy, while Shawn judges himself as not worthy", but then that'll have problems with other characters, Destiny and Mystique didn't pass, and they definitely shouldn't, and Mystique sometimes likes to talk like her attrocious actions are for some greater good when she's doing it for herself or just to be sadistic, and sometimes, Doom talks like that too, and he gets to pass lol.

It's also worth pointing out there is occasionally an emphasis on trying to do better, to the point that the Celestial in AXE Judgement Day#4 decides humanity isn't worthy because they'll always do better "tomorrow":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

So with doing better as another reason to pass, Doom really shouldn't have passed now that he's back to villainy.

[Steroid]

The Celestial makes you fail if you try to justify yourself but are a hypocrite while doing it:



(Immortal X-Men#6)

An unwillingness to change also seems to be a reason to fail:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png



(AXE: Death to the mutants#2)



Reminder his reason for giving a thumbs up to Thor is "His hammer says he's worthy, so he must be worthy":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...66/unknown.png

(AXE: Judgement Day#4)

Also in the same issue he decides to not judge a kid:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

He's basically saying "I'm not gonna judge a kid, I'm not a monster", at the same time, he will kill the planet, kids included, because other people didn't pass...

So yeah, shit like this shows he's a hypocrite, and a dumbass, and again, Jean herself in AXE: X-Men points out he's a hypocrite lol.



But so is Shawn (At least according to himself in Immortal X-Men#6), and he didn't pass even though he was being consistent to himself and proud of being a piece of shit:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...22/unknown.png



Unless the justification here is basically "Doom passes because he judges himself as worthy, while Shawn judges himself as not worthy", but then that'll have problems with other characters, Destiny and Mystique didn't pass, and they definitely shouldn't, and Mystique sometimes likes to talk like her attrocious actions are for some greater good when she's doing it for herself or just to be sadistic, and sometimes, Doom talks like that too, and he gets to pass lol.

It's also worth pointing out there is occasionally an emphasis on trying to do better, to the point that the Celestial in AXE Judgement Day#4 decides humanity isn't worthy because they'll always do better "tomorrow":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

So with doing better as another reason to pass, Doom really shouldn't have passed now that he's back to villainy.

I get what you are saying. From my perspective looking at the pages and Shaw's reaction he was talking big doesn't truly believe what he was saying. Shaw seems to actually care what the Celestial thinks based on the outburst while Doom truly didn't give a shit. Doom= You can't judge me period, While Shaw is more you can't judge me negatively.

[Lukmendes]

I get what you are saying. From my perspective looking at the pages and Shaw's reaction he was talking big doesn't truly believe what he was saying. Shaw seems to actually care what the Celestial thinks based on the outburst while Doom truly didn't give a shit.

Hm... Yeah, good point, he was also clearly annoyed that the Celestial chose Emma's appearance instead of his father's.

Doom= You can't judge me period, While Shaw is more you can't judge me negatively.

The problem with that is, even if you reject the Celestial's judgement, he judges you anyways, Destiny is evidence of that, and hell, so is Cyke, since he rejected the Celestial's authority, and got a thumbs up, so he was still judged lol.

It would be very weird if the Celestial decided to not judge someone just because they reject him.

[BrianWilly]

I think there the distinction here becomes "I reject your judgment because I'm proud of my choices, my life, and make no apologies about any of it" and "I reject your judgment because I'm actually super insecure about my choices and secretly deep down am in denial about how effed up I am." Doom, Cyclops, and probably Magneto fall into the former grouping, while Destiny, Shaw...and apparently Jean...fall into the latter.

[Mercury]

Or, since the Progenitor seems rather fickle with its judgments, it failed her because, as it stated to Jean, "You are like me." Could it have inherited Tony's deep-seated insecurity? Moreover, as I previously noted, as I interpret the scene, Jean's self-righteous claims and refusal to accept that she was Dark Phoenix stemmed from her unwillingness to embrace her cosmic nature, to which the Progenitor repeatedly alluded. That's why her response to it contradicted her speech at the Hellfire Gala and what she revealed to Nightmare before defeating him. She's already accepted and voiced that she was responsible for the annihilation of D'Bari and its inhabitants and has admitted that she can never "completely balance that scale" and "will fail" trying.

[Lukmendes]

I think there the distinction here becomes "I reject your judgment because I'm proud of my choices, my life, and make no apologies about any of it" and "I reject your judgment because I'm actually super insecure about my choices and secretly deep down am in denial about how effed up I am." Doom, Cyclops, and probably Magneto fall into the former grouping, while Destiny, Shaw...and apparently Jean...fall into the latter.

I mean, the problem is that, rejecting his judgement is irrelevant to begin with lol.

Doom and Cyke rejected his judgement, they got judged anyways, after all, passing it still means they got judged.

And being proud to do something wrong makes you fail too, that Makkari regrets making the Eternal and keeps doing something wrong, she fails, while Phastos realizes creating the Celestial to begin with was a mistake, and he helped the X-Men, that made him pass.

While I think how a character judges themselves is part of the reasoning behind who passes or doesn't, the Celestial makes it clear he judges characters by their actions too.

Or, since the Progenitor seems rather fickle with its judgments, it failed her because, as it stated to Jean, "You are like me." Could it have inherited Tony's deep-seated insecurity?

He had no problem passing Thor though, but that had the very questionable reasoning that is "The hammer says he's worthy" lol.

It gets even sillier if you think about what it means to be worthy, since that is Odin's standards of being worthy (Unless it's Thor's now? I'm not sure...), and all the way back in Thor#300, it's shown that Celestials are way above Odin in power, and when Odin and other gods tried to go against their judgement, he got fucked over:



So, basically, this Celestial is using a lesser god's judgement to pass Thor, and even if Celestials got nerfed enough to be in Odin's level (I do hear that around the 2000's they became much weaker), it's still really stupid to use someone else's judgement when he's the one who's supposed to be judging.

Moreover, as I previously noted, as I interpret the scene, Jean's self-righteous claims and refusal to accept that she was Dark Phoenix stemmed from her unwillingness to embrace her cosmic nature, to which the Progenitor repeatedly alluded. That's why her response to it contradicted her speech at the Hellfire Gala and what she revealed to Nightmare before defeating him. She's already accepted and voiced that she was responsible for the annihilation of D'Bari and its inhabitants and has admitted that she can never "completely balance that scale" and "will fail" trying.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FecC-woX...pg&name=medium

That planet's destruction is also rather clearly a very sore spot if one keeps pushing it, Jean's initial response to it being "It wasn't really me, but I'm trying to make up for it!", and when the Celestial dismisses that point, her other response is to get violent, and when that doesn't work too, she tries to convince him again that she's doing good, and pointing out she can never make up for it and failing her 'cause of that makes her drop and start crying.

It is understandable though, if not justified, a norman person killing one other person may feel guilty for the rest of their lives, a hero when they're not in asshole eras may feel even guiltier for doing that, but killing an entire planet? That can feel like an overwhelming weight to carry, specially if one holds themselves to a higher standard to trying to do good, and Jean's responses to his constant dismissiveness over it are very understandable, she's trying to do her best but he talks in a way like her attempts just don't matter.

[Mercury]

I love the fans.



"The unspoken truth you refuse to accept...”

[JB]

For a little while I was legit wondering, "Who is Shawn?" LOL!

The Celestial is a bit all over the place with his parameters it seems.

[ExodusCloak]

The Celestial makes you fail if you try to justify yourself but are a hypocrite while doing it:



(Immortal X-Men#6)

An unwillingness to change also seems to be a reason to fail:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png



(AXE: Death to the mutants#2)



Reminder his reason for giving a thumbs up to Thor is "His hammer says he's worthy, so he must be worthy":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...66/unknown.png

(AXE: Judgement Day#4)

Also in the same issue he decides to not judge a kid:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

He's basically saying "I'm not gonna judge a kid, I'm not a monster", at the same time, he will kill the planet, kids included, because other people didn't pass...

So yeah, shit like this shows he's a hypocrite, and a dumbass, and again, Jean herself in AXE: X-Men points out he's a hypocrite lol.



But so is Shawn (At least according to himself in Immortal X-Men#6), and he didn't pass even though he was being consistent to himself and proud of being a piece of shit:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...22/unknown.png



Unless the justification here is basically "Doom passes because he judges himself as worthy, while Shawn judges himself as not worthy", but then that'll have problems with other characters, Destiny and Mystique didn't pass, and they definitely shouldn't, and Mystique sometimes likes to talk like her attrocious actions are for some greater good when she's doing it for herself or just to be sadistic, and sometimes, Doom talks like that too, and he gets to pass lol.

It's also worth pointing out there is occasionally an emphasis on trying to do better, to the point that the Celestial in AXE Judgement Day#4 decides humanity isn't worthy because they'll always do better "tomorrow":

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

So with doing better as another reason to pass, Doom really shouldn't have passed now that he's back to villainy.

Destiny failed because she is trying to keep the only time line where Mystique is alive going while trying to pretend that she's doing it in the interest of mutant kind

Has Mystique failed yet? I would pass her

[MechaJeanix]

I miss your insight posts, Mecha. Another great one.

Thank you, Jbenito! I always enjoy your posts as well. I'm always afraid some find my posts annoying, but I just try to be myself.

[PyroFN]

Destiny failed because she is trying to keep the only time line where Mystique is alive going while trying to pretend that she's doing it in the interest of mutant kind

Has Mystique failed yet? I would pass her

The Celestial stated she failed. No specifics as to how or why.