Sauron vs The Night King

[Sophicles]

End of Second Age Sauron wearing the One Ring takes on The Night King from Game of Thrones.

1. Movie version with his giant mace vs TV show version, equipped with his icicle weaponry

2. Composite book and live action feats for both; Sauron also gets his 9 Ringwraiths as backup while the Night King gets 9 White Walkers as his backup.

Who wins in each scenario?

[big_adventure]

With the 100 foot start distance, Sauron seems likely to take a dragon-one-shotting spear to the eye as he charges into melee range. The Night King seems a lot faster and more skilled. Can Sauron mind whammy the Night King (can he do it to resisting foe without a connection like a palantir?)? Would he have time (it seems to be a thing that takes time generally)? I don't have those answers. At the end of the day, End of Second Age Sauron has a feat for appearing, smashing aside a bunch of warriors with a swing, then getting his fingers cut off by a sword, costing him the fight and his body. And that's about it - otherwise, he was doing a fine job of losing the war.

Likewise, the WWs are quicker than the wraiths. I don't know if they can kill the wraiths. And I don't know if the Walkers would be subject to the Witch King's aura of domination. I lean towards no, because they operate under the NK's thrall, but... it's possible? If the Walkers can hurt the Nazgul and are free to act, it's only a few moments until Sauron's backup force becomes the Night King's, because the Nazgul will soon have blue eyes, given the speed edge of the Walkers.

[Sharpandpointies]

1. Pass.

2. Feats for the Night King and White Walkers? One-shotting a GoT dragon is a good start. Not enough, especially if he now is missing his weapon, but it's a good start.

[big_adventure]

1. Pass.

2. Feats for the Night King and White Walkers? One-shotting a GoT dragon is a good start. Not enough, especially if he now is missing his weapon, but it's a good start.

Feats:

They have some degree of superhuman speed - they move too quickly to be perceived by trained, experienced warriors looking directly at them. I doubt it's beyond CBPH, but that's superhuman to a real world person or to someone in the GoT-verse.

The Night King makes his own weapons, IIRC, so he's got the weapons no matter what, it's a superpower.

They can't be hurt by anything except dragonglass (obsidian) and Valyrian steel. Other weapons just bounce. Obviously, there's a no-limits fallacy to avoid - Iron Man repulsoring one in the face at max power ought to do the trick regardless.

They are only rarely in combat. The Night King one-shots a GoT dragon at long range. He and White Walkers are in combat with trained warriors a few times and utterly dominate them. Samwell kills one by surprise by striking it with an obsidian blade he stumbles on as it's basically toying with him. Arya, who's probably the most skilled and the quickest fighter in the series by the time this combat happens, making up for her diminutive size, launches a sneak attack on the Night King's back. When she's inches away, he turns and snatches her out of the air contemptuously by wrist and throat, too quickly for her to adjust her attack at all to even nick him with the deadly blade. She kills him by dropping the Valyrian steel knife from her strike hand, snatching it with her free hand and stabbing him. Given his ludicrous speed, reach and strength edges, this shouldn't have happened, but well, neither should most of Season 8.

I would put them way ahead of anything we see from Sauron or the Nazgul in speed, and it's very likely that the Nazgul's weapons won't really have much or any effect on them. Sauron is another matter - he's probably massive and strong enough to reveal the fallacy in their invulnerability's stated lack of limits. The White Walkers probably aren't hurting Sauron.

So, it really comes down to the Night King using his speed and casual dragon slaying power. Against movie Sauron, this should be a pretty trivial win. Against book Sauron, however, that's a much tougher nut to crack, isn't it? On the one hand, his fingers get chopped off. On the other hand, that was by an elf weapon forged by an elf master, and those blades are special, even broken. And nobody else here is doing demonstrable harm to Sauron - it's going to need the Night King's personal attention.

[Tendrin]

Gonna go against the grain here and say Sauron absolutely takes it, no question.

[Sharpandpointies]

Feats:

They have some degree of superhuman speed - they move too quickly to be perceived by trained, experienced warriors looking directly at them. I doubt it's beyond CBPH, but that's superhuman to a real world person or to someone in the GoT-verse.

This is pretty good.

Book Sauron fights perfectly well with high-end Eldar and (apparently) murders the crap out of Eldar soldiers. We have Legolas moving so fast that his movements are invisible to the eye to trained, experienced soldiers who are actually watching him, and we have Tolkien explaining in his various essays that yes, Eldar dials apparently go up to twelve with regards to speed; they normally move like (graceful) people, but when pressed they can move at speeds that would appear magical to humans watching them (assuming the humans could follow their movements). Not 'whole-body disappearing from sight and blink-stepping elsewhere' speed, but 'movements faster than the eye can follow' (ie, perfectly capable of blitzing normal humans).

Sauron has created bodies that look Eldar but are superior to such. He has fought against Huan, who was...considerably faster than the Eldar. He has fought - rather well - against High-End Eldar. I have zero issues with him being capable of fighting against stuff that moves at this kind of speed.

The Night King makes his own weapons, IIRC, so he's got the weapons no matter what, it's a superpower.

Cool. Good to know.

They can't be hurt by anything except dragonglass (obsidian) and Valyrian steel. Other weapons just bounce. Obviously, there's a no-limits fallacy to avoid - Iron Man repulsoring one in the face at max power ought to do the trick regardless.

Yeah, I'm also figuring that 'immunity to normal guys hitting them with weapons' isn't going to stand up to 'Sauron brings the pain'.

They are only rarely in combat. The Night King one-shots a GoT dragon at long range. He and White Walkers are in combat with trained warriors a few times and utterly dominate them. Samwell kills one by surprise by striking it with an obsidian blade he stumbles on as it's basically toying with him. Arya, who's probably the most skilled and the quickest fighter in the series by the time this combat happens, making up for her diminutive size, launches a sneak attack on the Night King's back. When she's inches away, he turns and snatches her out of the air contemptuously by wrist and throat, too quickly for her to adjust her attack at all to even nick him with the deadly blade. She kills him by dropping the Valyrian steel knife from her strike hand, snatching it with her free hand and stabbing him. Given his ludicrous speed, reach and strength edges, this shouldn't have happened, but well, neither should most of Season 8.

All of this would be good against people, and certainly against the Nazgûl. The Nazgûl don't actually have a lot going for them in terms of anything but wrecking normals; it's not until much later in the series, when the Witch-King is granted 'an added measure of demonic power' (to use Tolkien's own words) by Sauron that I would say he would be a threat here. At that point, he's largely invulnerable to normal weapons himself, his presence and fear aura is such he literally shuts down entire battlefields, he can call upon spells of destruction capable of rending stone and weakening Númenorean constructions...oh, and he has a flaming sword. But whatever, he's not important here.

Sauron is.

Sauron isn't some slow, lumbering brute if he's successfully mangling Elder in combat. I would hesitate to say that any of the enemies here are just going to dance around him.

I would put them way ahead of anything we see from Sauron or the Nazgul in speed, and it's very likely that the Nazgul's weapons won't really have much or any effect on them.

I'm somewhat cool with the weapons part.

Sauron is another matter - he's probably massive and strong enough to reveal the fallacy in their invulnerability's stated lack of limits. The White Walkers probably aren't hurting Sauron.

Given Sauron's demonstrated durability through the ages, no, they're not.

So, it really comes down to the Night King using his speed and casual dragon slaying power. Against movie Sauron, this should be a pretty trivial win. Against book Sauron, however, that's a much tougher nut to crack, isn't it? On the one hand, his fingers get chopped off. On the other hand, that was by an elf weapon forged by an elf master, and those blades are special, even broken. And nobody else here is doing demonstrable harm to Sauron - it's going to need the Night King's personal attention.

Speed, again, isn't an insurmountable issue here. Not saying Sauron is 'as fast' as someone who moves 'blink and you miss it', but he's fast enough to easily fight (and kill) people who can fight quicker than the eye can follow. Also fast enough to fight Huan, who by all accounts was...rather quick. Even compared to Eldar.

Agreed with regards nobody but the Night-King is even worth considering against Sauron, here. So let's look at that.

Sauron's durability through the years is rather crazy. Yes, he gets his Ring finger cut off by Isildur...after he's downed, his body is effectively 'killed', and his power is shut down. But examine his high-end feats:

1. He fights Huan. Huan is a spiritual creature of enormous power. Huan casually murders all kinds of Werewolves like they're nothing. He catches arrows loosed by one of the Sons of Fëanor out of the air in his mouth. He fights against Carcharoth, and their HOWLING literally rips apart granite cliff walls and creates a sufficient avalanche to dam an enormous river (this is nothing more than collateral from the amount of NOISE they're making, not some kind of sonic attack power, and yes, it's noted as ripping apart the stone, not just 'shaking stuff and causing earthquakes'). Etc. Huan would likely ragdoll a GoT dragon, from the sounds of things. Sauron takes on the form of a wolf and fights this killing machine, and it's a long struggle. He eventually loses, but it's a fight.

2. On a day when the lightning sent by the Valar is shattering Númenorean buildings (more on this in a moment), Sauron basically gives it the finger and shrugs it off (he 'defies the lightning'). Númenorean buildings like Orthanc - one of their cheap outpost towers - are basically indestructible to anything in Middle Earth. Ents are capable of tearing apart fortified stone walls like they're cheese-cloth. A massive crowd of furious Ents attacks Orthanc, doing stuff like 'attacking the doors' (so the weak points) and throwing multi-ton boulders into the walls. They can't even scratch the paint on Orthanc (and, in fact, injure themselves trying!). The Valar's lightning was shattering the dome of Númenor's most important temple, and Sauron was okay with this.

3. It takes the High King of the Noldor wielding what we would consider a magic spear and a superhuman warrior wielding the greatest sword made by a dude who also makes a knife that basically *zip* cuts through steel to finally bring Sauron down. And he kills them both in the doing.

The power to one-shot one of the dragons in GoT isn't quite up to stuff here, from where I'm standing.

Throw on top of this Sauron's vast capacity for telepathic/mental control, his various sorcerous powers (as an example, he kills Gil-Galad by incinerating him), and I'm really, really not liking what I'm seeing for the Night-King. Maybe it's a fight, not an absolute ridiculous stomp, but it's Sauron's fight to win.

Gonna go against the grain here and say Sauron absolutely takes it, no question.

I'm not going to argue wrt Book Sauron. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

In terms of overall magical oomph, Night King's necromancy is seriously potent. He raises his hands and an entire battlefield rises with them, adding to his enormous pre-existing army. There doesn't seem to be an upper limit to the number of corpses he can animate, and it seems to be a credible threat he will turn an entire continent eventually if left unchecked. And they are being animated solely by him; when he is slain every body immediately falls inert. He can animate skeletons with no muscle left, including ones hundreds of years old, and non-humans too. Most notably, he made a zombie dragon with weird icey fire breath that took down the Wall, which was like... Hundreds of feet tall?

Which brings us to his best durability feat... Being completely unscathed by an extended stream of live dragons breath. But I feel there's an asterisk which big's signature line alludes to. Night King's zombie dragon flew despite having holes in its wings and breathed fire despite it's chest being blown open. That kind of implies the Night King was himself fueling those abilities, so there may be some weird specific magic interactions in play on that feat. It is never explicitly stated, though, so take it as you will.

[Sharpandpointies]

The necromancy is impressive, no doubt. It's quite potent.

Durability feat might be quite good. What kind of stuff does the dragonfire normally destroy? Are we talking about 'destroys stone'? Or was that the undead dragon's weird 'icey fire breath'?

One way or the other, it at least puts a crimp in 'Sauron incinerates him like he did Gil-Galad'.

[Captain Morgan]

The necromancy is impressive, no doubt. It's quite potent.

Durability feat might be quite good. What kind of stuff does the dragonfire normally destroy? Are we talking about 'destroys stone'? Or was that the undead dragon's weird 'icey fire breath'?

One way or the other, it at least puts a crimp in 'Sauron incinerates him like he did Gil-Galad'.

The dragon breath which hit him was a regular old live dragon, which regularly does stuff like make stone watch towers explode. So pretty potent, depending on how you read the asterisk.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Honestly, I'm just imagining the Night King trying to lob a spear at Sauron, the spear bouncing off; and then Sauron melting his face off.

[Sharpandpointies]

The dragon breath which hit him was a regular old live dragon, which regularly does stuff like make stone watch towers explode. So pretty potent, depending on how you read the asterisk.

That's not bad. Not Sauron-tough, but certainly pretty tough.

Honestly, I'm just imagining the Night King trying to lob a spear at Sauron, the spear bouncing off; and then Sauron melting his face off.

One might be able to argue for that, I feel. ^_^ Perhaps a bit of a low-ball, but certainly an amusing one!

[Captain Morgan]

Double post.

[choptop]

Not sure about the night king but the White Walkers would probably be under Saurons control at the start.

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, as soon as this moves to book versions, Sauron takes it. Best way to picture him is as the right hand of Satan (Morgoth).

[Jcogginsa]

Regarding the "Night King Hurls a Spear at Sauron" strat: Per hte OP Sauron is armed with the One Ring.

so, uh, can the Night King hit an invisible foe?