Superman by Josh Williamson and Jamal Campbell Discussion & Spoilers

[Kuwagaton]

I don't think it's hard to do a Super event. In fact, Clark is probably the easiest guy to build an Event around.

No, I think the only reason we don't see Super events is because DC didn't want to give him the attention. It's a known fact that Didio didn't like or understand the character, WB's last regime likewise thought he was outdated and broken, and nobody at WB or DC seem able to look past their Bat wanking to recognize how many incredible, amazing characters they have who live beyond Gotham. Bottom line, the company thinks (or thought, until the current crew) Superman is lame. That's the only reason we didn't get more Events about him.

I don't know that it's ever possible to determine such things as fact. Especially with a character people were complaining about from both sides of the table over 50 years ago. Maggin said when Denny came along that virtually no one wanted to write the character and Denny, a DC MVP, got fed up despite what seemed like a good effort.

Didio is interesting to me. For one I don't know about comments that he hated any property. The generous thing is probably to say he doesn't approach business as a fan, for all the pros and cons.

But he was an accidental Superboy writer who ended up as head of the product almost just as accidentally. He brought back Kara and eventually the Super Sons. He gave us tons of fringe financed by the big stuff, from elevating Morrison, Johns, and Lee to huge positions with some of the biggest comics in the last 25 years across any company. Yet Johns imo had a lot of ideas that didn't help Superman and Berganza is probably the most infamous staff member ever. Didio himself seems incompatible with many fan perspectives and he never seems to take it personally but he does own that.

If something the size of WoNK had been better planned or the New 52 didn't fall into chaos for Superman after a year and a half, maybe we'd technically have had the big crossover that he seemingly can't get. But like didio said about the recent CBR article (where Superman 2000 is called their worst screw up with the character), the only thing that's probably worse than the story not written is the story that was.

I know I'm quite far from talking about Williamson (and inferring too much about the people vs the work, sure) but in my head this always tied to the fact that here we are springing out of another Crisis. And especially not hard to bridge the gap because dick grayson was strutting all over that one lol

[Vordan]

In all fairness, DC did try to do a Superman event, multiple times in fact. New Krypton, Doomed, Superman Reborn, it’s just that most of them were garbage. I place most of the blame on Berganza, aside from being a bad dude, he failed to nurture the Superman books. So many of the crossovers either felt thrown together at the last minute or in NK’s case, had their endings rushed. At least this time they seem to be building up to whatever is coming, and it’s actually writer driven instead of being editorially mandated.

If something the size of WoNK had been better planned or the New 52 didn't fall into chaos for Superman after a year and a half, maybe we'd technically have had the big crossover that he seemingly can't get. But like didio said about the recent CBR article (where Superman 2000 is called their worst screw up with the character), the only thing that's probably worse than the story not written is the story that was.

I know I'm quite far from talking about Williamson (and inferring too much about the people vs the work, sure) but in my head this always tied to the fact that here we are springing out of another Crisis. And especially not hard to bridge the gap because dick grayson was strutting all over that one lol

Haven’t seen that, do you have a link?



Speaking of links, Williamson talks a little more about the Annual here, I’ll watch and post a summary later.

[Mantis-Ray]

Well DC does keep doing a gigantic Batman event every year, most of which aren't particularly good but they still do so anyway.

If we get crap like Joker War and Fear State then no reason why Supes and Wondy and others can't get events. Its just them giving preferential treatment to the Batbrand, at the Batbrand's expensive amusingly.

[Vordan]

-Williamson compares Superman learning to tune out people to Williamson’s own self-isolation from listening to people on social media
-Praises Campbell as a collaborator
-More young Lex scenes will be coming later down on the line, said he wanted Lex’s adventures to evoke Doc Savage, and the costume needed to evoke “science hero” with googles and pouches and what not
-Getting Banshee’s voice was tough because he didn’t want to go full Chris Claremont with her accent
-Mxy is the one Superman villain he doesn’t think he’ll touch, thinks he did all the Mxy he wanted in Batman/Superman
-Big theme of the book is everyone taking a big step outside their comfort zone: Clark working with SuperCorp, Jimmy and Silver Banshee dating, Lex trying to be more heroic, etc. Music is also going to be important again as a theme.
-Annual is more like “Superman 5.5”, gushes over how much he loves Samnee as an artist
-Annual is about Lois investigating all these mysteries of Metropolis, but she can’t do it directly because she’s editor in chief, she has to send reporters out to investigate for her. Meanwhile Clark is dealing with SuperCorp and the mad scientist order. Cat Grant and Steve Lombard are in the Annual.
-Some teases in the Annual for stuff coming in 2024
-He has some ideas for a new Daily Planet reporter that will be to Lois what she was to Perry(great but also a pain in the ass). Lois does hire another new reporter in the Annual and it’s someone that people will be very familiar with (maybe it’s Livewire?)
-Letting the book breathe so it has quieter character moments is important to him, he’s planning to give some moments to Lois, Mercy, and Jimmy coming up.

[Frontier]

-Williamson compares Superman learning to tune out people to Williamson’s own self-isolation from listening to people on social media
-Praises Campbell as a collaborator
-More young Lex scenes will be coming later down on the line, said he wanted Lex’s adventures to evoke Doc Savage, and the costume needed to evoke “science hero” with googles and pouches and what not
-Getting Banshee’s voice was tough because he didn’t want to go full Chris Claremont with her accent
-Mxy is the one Superman villain he doesn’t think he’ll touch, thinks he did all the Mxy he wanted in Batman/Superman
-Big theme of the book is everyone taking a big step outside their comfort zone: Clark working with SuperCorp, Jimmy and Silver Banshee dating, Lex trying to be more heroic, etc. Music is also going to be important again as a theme.
-Annual is more like “Superman 5.5”, gushes over how much he loves Samnee as an artist
-Annual is about Lois investigating all these mysteries of Metropolis, but she can’t do it directly because she’s editor in chief, she has to send reporters out to investigate for her. Meanwhile Clark is dealing with SuperCorp and the mad scientist order. Cat Grant and Steve Lombard are in the Annual.
-Some teases in the Annual for stuff coming in 2024
-He has some ideas for a new Daily Planet reporter that will be to Lois what she was to Perry(great but also a pain in the ass). Lois does hire another new reporter in the Annual and it’s someone that people will be very familiar with (maybe it’s Livewire?)
-Letting the book breathe so it has quieter character moments is important to him, he’s planning to give some moments to Lois, Mercy, and Jimmy coming up.

That kind of reminds me of how spotty a lot of X-writers have been with accents lately compared to the Claremont days.

I wonder if they'll explain the female Lombard in Action? It'll be nice to see Cat and Steve again (Ron coming back?).

I guess that leaves Mxy free for PKJ, if he's interested.

I wonder if Trish Q is still at the Planet. She was one of the more refreshing additions to the cast Bendis did.

[Kuwagaton]

Haven’t seen that, do you have a link?



Speaking of links, Williamson talks a little more about the Annual here, I’ll watch and post a summary later.

https://www.cbr.com/superman-comics-...es/#the-new-52

Williamson pretty much fit all of the Superman stuff into the first half hour, but I know you've already seen it now lol.

As for that character he mentioned, watch Hope turn up trying to get a job

[Vordan]

https://www.cbr.com/superman-comics-...es/#the-new-52

Williamson pretty much fit all of the Superman stuff into the first half hour, but I know you've already seen it now lol.

As for that character he mentioned, watch Hope turn up trying to get a job

Hope as in Lex’s other bodyguard? I know he had another Amazon bodyguard during Rucka’s Adventures of Superman run iirc. And of course there was a Hope in Azz’s Luthor mini. I’m leaning towards it being Livewire simply because she’s also in the Annual. Would rather it not be her since I’m wary of all these Rogues getting semi-redeemed, unless of course Williamson makes it clear Livewire has zero interest in turning a new leaf and is just desperate to get out of Stryker’s. Given Williamson’s continuity junkie status, and her cameo in the Parasite arc, there is a chance that maybe it could be Red Cloud.

[Kuwagaton]

I'm always just amused by extraordinary people doing ordinary things in life after their fifteen minutes ended. Like maybe Steel goes to a bank and Ben Lockwood is the branch manager.

But Mercy makes me wonder if she's still supposed to have her special abilities

[Vordan]

I'm always just amused by extraordinary people doing ordinary things in life after their fifteen minutes ended. Like maybe Steel goes to a bank and Ben Lockwood is the branch manager.

But Mercy makes me wonder if she's still supposed to have her special abilities

Current Mercy isn’t an Amazon but Lazarus Planet did turn her into a cyborg like her animated Young Justice counterpart:

[Ascended]

I don't know that it's ever possible to determine such things as fact.

Well, saying it's 'easy' to do a Super event would be subjective of course, based on the proclivities of the creators involved. You need guys who like that weird, high-concept Dr. Who type stuff. But objectively speaking, they've done big Events for other characters with roughly equal power levels and narrative scope, so I don't believe Clark offers any extra hurdles. If DC can do Blackest Night and Crisis after Crisis, they can do a Super event. And they have done a few, a handful of line-wide ones and some smaller in-franchise ones. Maybe they don't believe the regular sales justify more, there could be very practical business reasons for it. But creatively? I don't see the problem. Clark's not too 'big' for an Event or anything. Granted, most Events skew towards the Bat so an out-sized chunk don't focus on the uber-powerful guys like Clark, but that's a 'Bat obsession/top-selling IP' combo thing and not a narrative requirement.

I know I'm quite far from talking about Williamson (and inferring too much about the people vs the work, sure) but in my head this always tied to the fact that here we are springing out of another Crisis. And especially not hard to bridge the gap because dick grayson was strutting all over that one lol

Funny how once Didio left, Nightwing suddenly got good creators and some effort from the company. Also surprising that the title began selling better than it has in ages and has been winning awards and the love of fans. You'd almost think the two were linked.

Didio was a weird one. I found that a lot of his business choices were sound conceptually, but he either didn't/couldn't push them far enough, or he pushed them in the wrong direction, trying something in the direct market that clearly would've been better as a bookstore OGN, stuff like that. And he was consistently inconsistent, a big fan of random shock value gimmicks but also refusing to let go of what he considered 'classic status quo.' I blame the guy for a lot; putting Berganza on the Super books as a form of 'exile' (that tells you everything you need to know about how Didio prioritized Superman, btw), screwing over the Titans, Wally, and Nightwing out of what seems to be nothing but personal bias...there's a lot. But I also give him credit for a lot of things too, even things that didn't work out. I think the New Age of heroes line was handled brilliantly for example; that failed because of us, not Didio or DC. And he tried to expand comics beyond the direct market, which we absolutely need, and he was even successful towards the end with the YA 'Raven & Beast Boy' stuff. And I appreciate the wasted effort he put into saving the direct market, even if it was a fool's errand and those resources would've been better off used elsewhere.

[Kuwagaton]

Current Mercy isn’t an Amazon but Lazarus Planet did turn her into a cyborg like her animated Young Justice counterpart:

Sweet. Being a cyborg is actually less complicated and better suited to the world of Superman. I had a feeling because although it's cool to have a character who defies face value (a relatively normal looking woman who's an Amazon) it's hard to beat having a character synergize their current design with interesting roles and functions.

Well, saying it's 'easy' to do a Super event would be subjective of course, based on the proclivities of the creators involved. :p You need guys who like that weird, high-concept Dr. Who type stuff. But objectively speaking, they've done big Events for other characters with roughly equal power levels and narrative scope, so I don't believe Clark offers any extra hurdles. If DC can do Blackest Night and Crisis after Crisis, they can do a Super event. And they have done a few, a handful of line-wide ones and some smaller in-franchise ones. Maybe they don't believe the regular sales justify more, there could be very practical business reasons for it. But creatively? I don't see the problem. Clark's not too 'big' for an Event or anything. Granted, most Events skew towards the Bat so an out-sized chunk don't focus on the uber-powerful guys like Clark, but that's a 'Bat obsession/top-selling IP' combo thing and not a narrative requirement.

Tbh, my extent of Doctor Who is that I once flipped through channels and thought that lady with the curly crispy hair was attractive. But if I have anything in common with Didio, it's wanting Superman ideas to derive from DC Comics and not even something like the Donner films.

I'm not sure it's even about scale. You can always see the same people who talk about how "Superman is too this or that" saying how some single minded character in other media is cooler because they're more powerful than him. It's so ingrained in the minds of people that he's supposed to win that I feel like they end up thinking he's supposed to lose. Which is nuts, but along that line I can only assume they'd be annoyed with a big story that interrupts other stuff only to see Superman win.

For pretty much any scenario I think Bendis was a good test and Williamson should give us the final answer by the time he's done.

Funny how once Didio left, Nightwing suddenly got good creators and some effort from the company. Also surprising that the title began selling better than it has in ages and has been winning awards and the love of fans. You'd almost think the two were linked.

Didio was a weird one. I found that a lot of his business choices were sound conceptually, but he either didn't/couldn't push them far enough, or he pushed them in the wrong direction, trying something in the direct market that clearly would've been better as a bookstore OGN, stuff like that. And he was consistently inconsistent, a big fan of random shock value gimmicks but also refusing to let go of what he considered 'classic status quo.' I blame the guy for a lot; putting Berganza on the Super books as a form of 'exile' (that tells you everything you need to know about how Didio prioritized Superman, btw), screwing over the Titans, Wally, and Nightwing out of what seems to be nothing but personal bias...there's a lot. But I also give him credit for a lot of things too, even things that didn't work out. I think the New Age of heroes line was handled brilliantly for example; that failed because of us, not Didio or DC. And he tried to expand comics beyond the direct market, which we absolutely need, and he was even successful towards the end with the YA 'Raven & Beast Boy' stuff. And I appreciate the wasted effort he put into saving the direct market, even if it was a fool's errand and those resources would've been better off used elsewhere.

I know more about Nightwing than I know about Doctor Who, but that's still probably less than I know about Morgan Edge. After his Year One I liked Dick as Batman and the phenomenal Grayson, but those are all examples of the character in a different role. I know there's a lot to be said about an agenda against the character but there seemed to be a lot of bright spots and just one hilariously bad (and long) exception preceding 2020.

With regards to impacts on the rest of the industry I'd point to Hush, DK2, All Star Superman, and a number of signed off stories bringing about bookstore and direct market success simultaneously. Also for whatever reason that Berganza was able to stick to Superman, he had his hooks in years before Didio started and to be fair some of it went quite well.

[Vordan]

Mercy getting spotlighted more is one of my favorite developments of the run. I prefer her being a cyborg, ideally she would be transformed into one willingly by Lex himself. Maybe Lex had a hand in pushing her to that point and maybe he just saw an advantage and took it, but that would explain where her loyalty comes from. Lex I think likes having Mercy around as someone he can point to as an example of what he could do for the world. She was a nobody before meeting him, and all he asks for in return is completely loyalty/obedience. Of course how Mercy sees herself is still a character point that needs fleshing out. Least now that she’s getting used more, there’s a chance we might get answers there.

[Ascended]

I'm not sure it's even about scale. You can always see the same people who talk about how "Superman is too this or that" saying how some single minded character in other media is cooler because they're more powerful than him.

It's about scale to the degree that whatever your Event is, it has to challenge your main characters and push them beyond the norm. You can't do a Batman Event where the Riddler is just robbing banks and not doing anything differently. That's just a Batman story, not a line-wide Event, y'know? So for someone like Clark, Hal, Diana, etc., you need a pretty big threat to justify the Event.

And people complaining about Clark being over powered, while claiming their favorite could kick his ass....that's just the hypocrisy of fandom, and the result of Superman's global profile. He's king of the mountain, so of course he's the target for complaints whether they actually fit or not. Non-fans wouldn't like him showing up in their regular books for an Event tie-in, but plenty of folks don't like their regular titles being interrupted by Events anyway, no matter who it's about.

And maybe, if we had a few Super Events where Clark got to pop into other books and be awesome (without insulting or demeaning the title hero), some of those non-fans would start to reconsider their opinion. Maybe the fandom would gain a few new members. As I said, there could be solid business rationale for not doing more Super Events, but creatively I don't think there's any hurdles. If Batman can have an Event about evil versions of himself from across the multiverse, it's not impossible to do a Super Event.

I know there's a lot to be said about an agenda against [Nightwing] but there seemed to be a lot of bright spots and just one hilariously bad (and long) exception preceding 2020.

There were a couple bright spots. Morrison's Batman, King/Seely's Grayson, a few others. And rarely did those bright spots include "Nightwing," they were Dick in a different role (Batman, Agent 37, etc). Mostly what we had was a lot of C- quality, mediocre runs, and a whole lot of treading water between Bat Events. Nightwing was the book Didio couldn't get rid of despite his best efforts, so he usually made sure the talent on it was either new and unproven, or old stand-by's who didn't sell like they used to but were friends with DC's leadership. With the new and unproven talent, if/when they proved successful (King) they got pulled off the book for something more important. If they were old stand-by's (Lobdell) they'd be on the book until another gig floated along. And after Infinite Crisis, Dick suffered the same lack of consistency that's plagued Wonder Woman for decades; each new writer would create their own supporting cast, re-invent Bludhaven into something completely new....it hamstrung the title and prevented it from cementing a foundation and growing.

With regards to impacts on the rest of the industry I'd point to Hush, DK2, All Star Superman, and a number of signed off stories bringing about bookstore and direct market success simultaneously. Also for whatever reason that Berganza was able to stick to Superman, he had his hooks in years before Didio started and to be fair some of it went quite well.

Oh certainly, some Elseworld type stuff was clearly made with evergreen trade sales in mind. And when Didio was able to pull those stories off, I give him all the credit he deserves for it. Lot of good stuff in his DC era.

As for Berganza, yes he was at DC before Didio was even employed there. But when Berganza was revealed to be a sexual predator, Didio was one of the top guys and instead of firing the scumbag like was proper, he got exiled to the Super books. Which not only shows the lack of respect Didio had for the franchise, but his lack of respect for a positive work environment (and there's other reports that reinforce his awful workplace practices). Berganza should have been fired, charged with whatever crimes were appropriate, and left to rot in unemployment and/or jail. Instead he got to control one of the most well known fictional characters on earth. And while we did get a few good runs during Berganza's editorial era (more crap than anything but a few good ones), that's not really the point.

Again, I'm not actually a Didio hater, even though he worked tirelessly to screw over many of my favorites. I'd love to have a beer with the guy, I bet he's got great stories. But as good as he was for certain characters at certain times, he was a pox upon a whole host of other characters who, if they saw any success during his tenure at all, did so entirely by accident.

[Kuwagaton]

Mercy getting spotlighted more is one of my favorite developments of the run. I prefer her being a cyborg, ideally she would be transformed into one willingly by Lex himself. Maybe Lex had a hand in pushing her to that point and maybe he just saw an advantage and took it, but that would explain where her loyalty comes from. Lex I think likes having Mercy around as someone he can point to as an example of what he could do for the world. She was a nobody before meeting him, and all he asks for in return is completely loyalty/obedience. Of course how Mercy sees herself is still a character point that needs fleshing out. Least now that she’s getting used more, there’s a chance we might get answers there.

The best thing is that we're like 95% likely to get a Mercy one off dealing with who and is and "where" she is now or is going to be soon.

It's about scale to the degree that whatever your Event is, it has to challenge your main characters and push them beyond the norm. You can't do a Batman Event where the Riddler is just robbing banks and not doing anything differently. That's just a Batman story, not a line-wide Event, y'know? So for someone like Clark, Hal, Diana, etc., you need a pretty big threat to justify the Event.

Oh I just meant scale as in people don't have a problem expecting big. I agree. Quex forms a PZ gang and learns how to inject himself with pure sunlight, a Zaar of the Month brainwashes Thanagar into a thinly veiled political conflict, etc. Not really what I want but there are definitely some vehicles that any writer can use to get to where they wanna go and play with all the toys.

There were a couple bright spots. Morrison's Batman, King/Seely's Grayson, a few others. And rarely did those bright spots include "Nightwing," they were Dick in a different role (Batman, Agent 37, etc). Mostly what we had was a lot of C- quality, mediocre runs, and a whole lot of treading water between Bat Events. Nightwing was the book Didio couldn't get rid of despite his best efforts, so he usually made sure the talent on it was either new and unproven, or old stand-by's who didn't sell like they used to but were friends with DC's leadership. With the new and unproven talent, if/when they proved successful (King) they got pulled off the book for something more important. If they were old stand-by's (Lobdell) they'd be on the book until another gig floated along. And after Infinite Crisis, Dick suffered the same lack of consistency that's plagued Wonder Woman for decades; each new writer would create their own supporting cast, re-invent Bludhaven into something completely new....it hamstrung the title and prevented it from cementing a foundation and growing.

I think one has to make some assumptions about motivation and throw quite a few people under the bus to make that point. Devin Grayson, Wolfman, Jones, Tomasi, Morrison, and Higgins all pretty much in succession is nothing to sneeze at in general and highly relevant for the character. King went to Batman but Seeley stayed at least. If any of those runs were bad, given their histories it's hard to call it a case of sabotage.

Again, I'm not actually a Didio hater, even though he worked tirelessly to screw over many of my favorites. I'd love to have a beer with the guy, I bet he's got great stories. But as good as he was for certain characters at certain times, he was a pox upon a whole host of other characters who, if they saw any success during his tenure at all, did so entirely by accident.

I can imagine being an executive editor is full of virtually all accidents, happy or unfortunate. So many moving parts. With intention you can put Miller and Lee on Batman and have it come as close to failure as possible, and you can put Grant Morrison to the task of writing All Star Superman in the same sweep.

All I know is hey, with some pull I'd have discouraged putting Williamson on this comic, and in hindsight I'd have been dead wrong.

[Ascended]

I think one has to make some assumptions about motivation and throw quite a few people under the bus to make that point.

One does. And I'm not usually one to ascribe hostile intent to creative decisions I don't like. But in the case of Dick, Wally, and the Titans? I believe Didio was acting on a bias. And while I obviously can't say for certain, the choices made with these characters combined with things Didio has said in interviews leads me to believe it wasn't a unconscious bias either. I could be wrong. I don't know the man or what went on behind closed doors. But it's the only conclusion that makes sense, given what I know. And if I'm right, Didio wouldn't be the only big wig guilty of it. Plenty of businessmen who should know better have allowed personal opinion to influence their decision making.

And some of those creators you listed were on the book before Didio was in charge. Just saying.

All I know is hey, with some pull I'd have discouraged putting Williamson on this comic, and in hindsight I'd have been dead wrong.

I think a lot of people would've been too. And even the folks who thought he'd do okay probably didn't expect the book to be this good. I thought at best, with luck, we'd get Flash quality, but this is so much better. That's one of the weird things I love about this industry; it's alchemy, not science. The art and business sides have to bend around each other, creators and IP can mix in surprising ways, and you never really know what you're gonna get until it's done and the reviews are in. So like I said, I tend not to blame anyone on a personal level when stuff goes sideways. In most cases that includes Didio. But the Titans (and Clark, to a lesser extent)...yeah, my conclusion is that it was, at least partially, Didio giving in to his personal opinion.

But whatever. The man is gone and so is most of his regime, most of the characters who suffered under him (intentionally or otherwise) are doing well, and DC seems to be recovering (if slowly), from what little I see of the sales charts. I hold no ill will towards Didio, even if he did screw over characters intentionally. I'm glad he's gone, but I wish him well...as long as he doesn't return to DC.

And just to balance things a little, I'll say something nice. Didio's efforts to break beyond the LCS were often solid and he did more to save comics than any other publisher I can think of. And some stuff, like the New Age line, was executed brilliantly and failed because of us fans, not anything DC did.