Carol : Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel ?

[Alan2099]

This reminds me of all those times I'd be reading comics and characters would say things like "It's a good thing my skintight spandex is actually made of chainmail". Or armored. Or provides protection against artic temperature or whatever.

I'm also fond of "This symbol or bright part of my uniform is armored, so everybody always aims there instead of my head."

I didn't think anybody ever bought into those excuses, but judging by this conversation that's what some people want to hear, some kind of justification for why their silly power fantasy isn't silly and is instead 100% realistic and serious.

Which is why I don't care about all those "not practical", "wouldn't make sense to wear that" arguments, when it's actually "I don't like that some men, somewhere are aroused by that drawing".

It's like somebody openly admiting that they hate when people like different thing than what they like.

[Digifiend]

To be fair, red, yellow and blue were her original colors, and she was using them even right before the 2012 costume. They weren't the new bit. Still --

The reason the red-yellow-blue got adopted for Mar-Vell was that sales were bad with the green and white.

The reason the red-yellow-blue cam back for Genis-Vell is that sales were lower with the green and white.

There was a flashback mini-series with Mar-vell in the green and white and it didn't sell either.

Green and white are the colors of the Nigerian flag, though. Add yellow, and you've got Ireland's flag colors (among others).

There are a lot of red/yellow/blue flags, but that may be for the same reason Superman's got those colors -- they stand out real well.

kdb

Ireland's flag is orange, not yellow.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[mikeb]

I'm wondering...did Dave Cockrum get inspired to create Carol's black outfit from the one he created for Jean Grey/Pheonix 2 years earlier? Even though the green and gold outfit is a full bodysuit, they both share some similarities. Thigh-high boots, Opera gloves, and even a waist sash. just some food for thought...

[JudicatorPrime]

I'm wondering...did Dave Cockrum get inspired to create Carol's black outfit from the one he created for Jean Grey/Pheonix 2 years earlier? Even though the green and gold outfit is a full bodysuit, they both share some similarities. Thigh-high boots, Opera gloves, and even a waist sash. just some food for thought...

Pretty much. Even Cockrum's early designs for the character who would eventually become Ororo had the high boots and bikini. Can't lie, loved that look. I also understaood why the women in the Hellfire Club basically traipsed around in lingerie -- leather or otherwise. But times change, sensibilities change, and no one should be seriously upset if artists decide to change a character's costume to match the changing mores.

I'm totally fine with Carol's various costume changes. I just think that they could have done a better job designing the new uniform. Be it the color scheme or the highlights and accents, it just doesn't impress me as it should. It looks like something that one of those third-rate comic houses would produce. The House of Ideas needs to rethink it.

[Kurt Busiek]

Ireland's flag is orange, not yellow.

Google has failed me...!

kdb

[4theEarth]

Pretty much. Even Cockrum's early designs for the character who would eventually become Ororo had the high boots and bikini. Can't lie, loved that look. I also understaood why the women in the Hellfire Club basically traipsed around in lingerie -- leather or otherwise. But times change, sensibilities change, and no one should be seriously upset if artists decide to change a character's costume to match the changing mores.

In essence it is messaging over design when you say 'sensibilities change' and people are supposed to be okay with that. Thing of it is that women continue to dress in all kinds of provocative outfits in media and on the street and yet are not to be objectified? Being upset is just what people should be.

[4theEarth]

Not all superheroes run around in their underwear, especially not most of the men. This conversation only keeps popping up because some female characters have traded in the skimpy outfits for more modest ones. This isn't about what superheroes are supposed to be like. It's about people like the OP complaining that they can't jerk off to certain female characters anymore.

Umm not really - the origins of superhero costumes come circus performers and Houdini right up to pro wrestlers. All intended to show off the physique of the performer of both genders. Or as Woody Allen used to say 'stop knocking my hobby'

[Agent Z]

In essence it is messaging over design when you say 'sensibilities change' and people are supposed to be okay with that. Thing of it is that women continue to dress in all kinds of provocative outfits in media and on the street and yet are not to be objectified? Being upset is just what people should be.

As I have said before, Marvel hasn't stopped drawing female characters in revealing outfits, so there isn't anything to really be upset about. They just aren't making it the default for female characters and are taking into consideration what certain will wear.

Umm not really - the origins of superhero costumes come circus performers and Houdini right up to pro wrestlers.

And again, not all of these guys wear revealing outfits. It isn't like most male superheroes dress like Namor.

All intended to show off the physique of the performer of both genders. Or as Woody Allen used to say 'stop knocking my hobby'

No one's knocking your hobby.

[4theEarth]

As I have said before, Marvel hasn't stopped drawing female characters in revealing outfits, so there isn't anything to really be upset about. They just aren't making it the default for female characters and are taking into consideration what certain will wear.

Well I thought this thread was focused on Capt. Marvel becoming all covered up to "reflect" her serious and 'realistic' standing in the MU or have I misread?

And again, not all of these guys were revealing outfits. It isn't like most male superheroes dress like Namor.

Well of course not all (Iron Man thank you) but spandex and its early takes on leotards reflect a celebration of the body and movement that was considered liberating up until our current climate of repressive and stodgy standards.
Consider this - as Comics have done away with the Code imposed on them, have they become any more mature or free about sexual relations or is G and PG still the norm?

No one's knocking your hobby.

I guess you don't get the joke s'okay

[4theEarth]

The thing you are overlooking are the female comic book readers and writers. A lot of my female friends back in the day used to mock comic books because alot of the female heroes dressed/looked like pornstars. The issue they had was the female heroes look were designed to be oogled by the mostly male comic boom audience as opposed to being potrayed as actual women.

There was a whole movement about it led by female comic writers called the Hawkeye Initiative. The site features fan art of Marvel character Hawkeye (Clint Barton) in various poses held by female characters that the artists believe to be impossible or sexually provocative.The site's intent is phrased as "to draw attention to how deformed, hypersexualized, and unrealistically dressed women are drawn in comics.

I had no issue with but the costumes like Carol's old one was a huge barrier to getting women and young girls to read comics. So they really had no choice but to change it

I remember those early feminist cracks at objectifying but it seems like nobody listened to the counter arguments and the correctness was more important than any real impact on readership. How can it be a barrier to getting into comic when girls and women are already partaking in the deformed, hypersexualized culture gladly? Or is it that comics want to appeal to the segment of the females that want to reject that? Postfeminism is part of the discourse now and frankly I have no problem with super sexy Hawkeye.

[Agent Z]

Well I thought this thread was focused on Capt. Marvel becoming all covered up to "reflect" her serious and 'realistic' standing in the MU or have I misread?

The thread seems to have been created so the user who made it can complain about political correctness.

Well of course not all (Iron Man thank you) but spandex and its early takes on leotards reflect a celebration of the body and movement that was considered liberating up until our current climate of repressive and stodgy standards.

We are not more repressed now compared to before because Carol Danvers isn't wearing a leotard. This "current climate of repressive and stodgy standards" has given us two different polyamorous relationships and has more LGBT characters than any previous decade. Anyone who claims this period is repressive may be in need of a better understanding of that word.

Consider this - as Comics have done away with the Code imposed on them, have they become any more mature or free about sexual relations or is G and PG still the norm?

See above. And I wouldn't judge how mature a comic is by how much skin a woman is showing.

I remember those early feminist cracks at objectifying but it seems like nobody listened to the counter arguments and the correctness was more important than any real impact on readership. How can it be a barrier to getting into comic when girls and women are already partaking in the deformed, hypersexualized culture gladly? Or is it that comics want to appeal to the segment of the females that want to reject that? Postfeminism is part of the discourse now and frankly I have no problem with super sexy Hawkeye.

You do know that now every woman wears revealing outfits even in real life, right?

[Gnostic]

I choose option 3 Warbird. But seriously I have no problem whatsoever with Carol being Captain Marvel.

Warbird is a cool ass superhero name.

[JudicatorPrime]

Warbird is a cool ass superhero name.

The name has grown on me, especially now that it belongs to her:

[OBrianTallent]

Practicality is really based on the characters I would think (just my opinion)...as in Carol's case...a character who is pretty near impervious..what is practical for her? Anything really, be it her original bare bellied suit, the black and yellow, Binary or her current costume. Same can be said for She-Hulk, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Powergirl...Marvel really doesn't have many physcial power house characters who are females do they or am I just forgetting a lot of them? There's Titania (who's costume does go back and forth between more modest and less modest depending on the book/artist), Frenzy, Rogue (depending on the day and who's power she has)...
Likewise and this is from memory and if someone has better knowledge, please feel free to correct me, but I had read that initially comic companies held the belief that primary colored costumes were better at getting the attention and more likely associated with heroic characters while secondary colors were reserved more for the villains...or some such as that. It's been a while since I read that and dont have any idea as to where I read it.
I do agree that Carol's current costume can sometimes feel a bit bland, but I attribute that more to her hair than the costume. Has no one noticed that since changing costumes Carol is drawn with less and less hair???? As the black suited Ms. M she had a large full glorious mane of golden locks when drawn by just about every artist. Yet as the good Captain, her hair is thin, flat...just sitting on her heard like a lump of wet noodles. (And let's not even discuss the short coiffed cut she had initially.)
While the black costume would have been excellent as a full body suit (maybe a halter but with pants) I do agree that it's not quite Captain Marvel worthy, while the current one is far more suited to the title. I do however DEMAND that she be returned to her large flowing glorious locks of golden hair that she had during her Ms. Marvel days. I demand it I say!*

Yes, I do realize my demands equate about as much as shouting at the wind, I can still state my opinion for which others can agree or disagree...usually the latter and not the former.