The Official Futures End(Superman's side) Discussion

[victorsage]

A little more info; it appears that among the superhero community, that Superman is Billy Batson is not a secret. At least, Stormguard (a new hero, almost a Captain America type), seems to know and treats it as no big thing when Lois asks him about it.

I'm getting a funny feeling Diana died. I know we've seen Wonder Woman, but I'm wondering if its Diana, much in the same way that Superman turned out not to be Kal-El.

Maybe Dinah Lance colored her hair and took the name. That make as much sense as Billy suddenly deciding he wants to be Superman. lol Is Shazam that little of a hero in the new universe? And if he is shame on DC comics.

[Sacred Knight]

Of course it doesn't make sense. That it doesn't make sense is why I didn't buy into the theory in the first place. But it happened anyway, and thus I give the writers a chance to explain it. The story's been really good so far though so I have faith the reason will end up being a good one.

[Prime]

Maybe Dinah Lance colored her hair and took the name. That make as much sense as Billy suddenly deciding he wants to be Superman. lol Is Shazam that little of a hero in the new universe? And if he is shame on DC comics.

This seems to grind your gears. Does it really bother you that much that Shzam took Supes place?

[victorsage]

This seems to grind your gears. Does it really bother you that much that Shzam took Supes place?

Yeah it does. Mostly because Shazam is a great character in his own right, and used to be recognized as a great hero in his own right. Granted I'm not sure how famous Shazam is in the N52, so maybe he doesn't mean much anymore, but that's bull in my opinion. The big red cheese as a great hero who inspired people on his own, and never before needed to use Clark's symbols and name. Billy should have his own symbol and name to live up to that inspires people because he is Captain Marvel.

[Superlad93]

Honestly I don't really care about the idea of the mantel of Superman passing onto Superboy or Supergirl. That if anything makes some kind of sense. The idea of Shazam giving up his superhero identity and taking Supermans is odd. Shazam is his own hero, with his own following and style. He doesn't need to pretend to be Clark. So I don't know what your bitching about, because I never said Superboy or Supergirl couldn't take up Clark's mantel, just that Shazam has his on identity to live up to.

I think it's the idea that Superman is the worlds safety blanket. So long as he's around you know that everything's gonna be alright. The big bad of Futures End is actually specifically scared of Superman and would very much like him to stay out of things. Not only is the Man of Steel the most powerful being on the earth he's also the most inspiring (his whole city has a spiritual mass of faith centered around him as Phantom Stranger pointed out)

It's Billy just doing his part to keep the world at ease in these hard times. The other heroes seem to be in agreement with this idea.

[Sacred Knight]

Hell I remember in the 90s that the thing to do with Billy in alternate tales was to turn him into a bad guy and foil for Superman (I'm thinking specifically Kingdom Come and Distant Fires). At least in this future tale, Billy's still very much a hero.

But to not beat around the bush, yes, this does show that to the DCU, Superman means more. But I mean, that's wholly accurate within and outside the lore. Always has been. Doesn't mean he means absolutely nothing though at the same time. In fact I think it reflects well on the character of the young man. He's doing all this in the guise of someone else. No one knows its him, he gets no accolades for what he does. But he's doing it anyway, seemingly completely of his own free will, specifically for the people of Metropolis and the world, knowing what that symbol means to them. That shows a pretty admirable lack of ego, imo.

[Superlad93]

Hell I remember in the 90s that the thing to do with Billy in alternate tales was to turn him into a bad guy and foil for Superman (I'm thinking specifically Kingdom Come and Distant Fires). At least in this future tale, Billy's still very much a hero.

But to not beat around the bush, yes, this does show that to the DCU, Superman means more. But I mean, that's wholly accurate within and outside the lore. Always has been. Doesn't mean he means absolutely nothing though at the same time. In fact I think it reflects well on the character of the young man. He's doing all this in the guise of someone else. No one knows its him, he gets no accolades for what he does. But he's doing it anyway, seemingly completely of his own free will, specifically for the people of Metropolis and the world, knowing what that symbol means to them. That shows a pretty admirable lack of ego, imo.

Really shows that the Wizard picked the right kid.

[victorsage]

I think it's the idea that Superman is the worlds safety blanket. So long as he's around you know that everything's gonna be alright. The big bad of Futures End is actually specifically scared of Superman and would very much like him to stay out of things. Not only is the Man of Steel the most powerful being on the earth he's also the most inspiring (his whole city has a spiritual mass of faith centered around him as Phantom Stranger pointed out)

It's Billy just doing his part to keep the world at ease in these hard times. The other heroes seem to be in agreement with this idea.

Good God, and here I thought me saying people deify the superhero community a bit to much, was a bit of hyperbole. lol Guess DC comics is actually doing it in their stories even more so now. Which just sounds like a stupid premise in my opinion, and it sounds like DC comics ringing it's own bell. I'm a huge Superman fan above all other characters, but honestly Captain Marvel was the greatest selling hero of the Golden Age he sold 1.3 million copies an issue on average, and sold 14 million copies in 1944 alone. The highest he had of all time is 2.5 million copies an issue. I have a lot of respect for what Cap did for comics. As much as Superman impacted things half the reason he did so was because of the competition Captain Marvel had with him, until DC sued Fawcett.

Just sounds like a cheap idea to me. Granted I'm sure Supes is over powered compared to Cap now to right?

Anyways sorry about my own hang ups. I keep trying to see something positive in this new world from the outside, but rarely do I find it. Just seems to annoy me the more I read about it. lol. Sorry if that annoys my fellow posters.

Hell I remember in the 90s that the thing to do with Billy in alternate tales was to turn him into a bad guy and foil for Superman (I'm thinking specifically Kingdom Come and Distant Fires). At least in this future tale, Billy's still very much a hero.

I never liked the theme behind Kingdom Come. Despite it's amazing art. The premise just never sat well with me, and just seemed like an old man longing for his pre crisis version of the characters he liked well he complained about the story themes and techniques set into motion largely by writers like Alan Moore and companies like Marvel and the Independents. To me the subtitle of Kingdom Come could have been "Alan Moore and other independent writers ruined comics! They were better when I was a boy, and here's why!" Or "Modern superhero themes suck!"

Then again who am I to bitch since I see the new 52 the same way Ross saw the Post Crisis universe. lol

[Superlad93]

Good God, and here I thought me saying people deify the superhero community a bit to much, was a bit of hyperbole. lol Guess DC comics is actually doing it in their stories even more so now. Which just sounds like a stupid premise in my opinion, and it sounds like DC comics ringing it's own bell. I'm a huge Superman fan above all other characters, but honestly Captain Marvel was the greatest selling hero of the Golden Age he sold 1.3 million copies an issue on average, and sold 14 million copies in 1944 alone. The highest he had of all time is 2.5 million copies an issue. I have a lot of respect for what Cap did for comics. As much as Superman impacted things half the reason he did so was because of the competition Captain Marvel had with him, until DC sued Fawcett.

Just sounds like a cheap idea to me. Granted I'm sure Supes is over powered compared to Cap now to right?

Anyways sorry about my own hang ups. I keep trying to see something positive in this new world from the outside, but rarely do I find it. Just seems to annoy me the more I read about it. lol. Sorry if that annoys my fellow posters.

It's cool you don't have to like it. I'm not really all that into it. I'm not even that into the new 52 anymore to be honest with you. I love Pak's books and most of all Morrison's Multiversity. After those are gone I'm out like a belly button.

Also yeah Superman's so far been dubbed the most powerful of heroes including Cap. He's been a hero longer and has done more to inspire. Billy's been pretty low key so far. Doesn't really matter to me cuz my Cap and Billy will be in Thunder World in Multiversity.

[Sacred Knight]

Just sounds like a cheap idea to me. Granted I'm sure Supes is over powered compared to Cap now to right?

Nothing to imply that at all yet, actually. Superman is certainly more powerful compared to himself post-Crisis, that's a definite. But so's Shazam. He's strong enough to at least tag Superman for a loop (gave him a knuckle sandwich in Trinity War), and honestly there seems to be little limit to his magic yet. And in Futures End, he's doing all the things that Superman could do; Lois notes his powerset seems the same.

Besides, if future solicits are to believed, the world finds out the secret in three weeks. And when that happens, its hard for me to imagine the necessity for Billy to wear the get-up anymore so we very well might be seeing regular ole' Shazam back again sooner than later and for what will turn out to be the bulk of the series.

[Kid A]

It's cool you don't have to like it. I'm not really all that into it. I'm not even that into the new 52 anymore to be honest with you. I love Pak's books and most of all Morrison's Multiversity. After those are gone I'm out like a belly button.

Batman books are where it's at right now.

[dumbduck]

That's...confusing. It's not as if his powers are so super special that whatever he's afraid of couldn't be done with other heroes like Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Shazam, Martian Manhunter, etc. It's also not as if Doomed has shown us that even when in a precarious Superdoom state, he couldn't stay away from helping people. I hope when the whole truth is illuminated, it'll make more sense than the vague explanation we've gotten so far.

Yeah it does. Mostly because Shazam is a great character in his own right, and used to be recognized as a great hero in his own right. Granted I'm not sure how famous Shazam is in the N52, so maybe he doesn't mean much anymore, but that's bull in my opinion. The big red cheese as a great hero who inspired people on his own, and never before needed to use Clark's symbols and name. Billy should have his own symbol and name to live up to that inspires people because he is Captain Marvel.

I agree with both misslane and victorsage.

This is for me just another case of bad story ideas that manages to annoy many sides. For me it's more show don't tell. Like misslane said, very little has been shown to make Supes all that special. And let me bet right here, he won't be allowed to have any special impact on whatever event leads or not to the saving/avoidance of war with Earth2 or war against Anti Monitor/Darkside. But we sure as hell will get more lip service talking about how powerful and special he is.

I'm also on the camp that doesn't like that one more time Superman has given up.

And it also gets to attract more antipathy for the character by aggravating Cap/Shazam fans. After 'doomed' Supes will have to work very hard to become so special and 'needed'. Shazam, Wondy, J'onn, Flash, GL, etc are just as capable and more than/as he is, I doubt DC will allow him to do anything special. Yet Shazam fans have to swallow that.

EDIT: If I'm not wrong in my understanding of Future's End, well, if Supes is forced to fight against another Earth, this could lead very clearly to his self-disgust. But it would be the same for everyone else. Including Diana.

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Good God, and here I thought me saying people deify the superhero community a bit to much, was a bit of hyperbole. lol Guess DC comics is actually doing it in their stories even more so now. Which just sounds like a stupid premise in my opinion, and it sounds like DC comics ringing it's own bell. I'm a huge Superman fan above all other characters, but honestly Captain Marvel was the greatest selling hero of the Golden Age he sold 1.3 million copies an issue on average, and sold 14 million copies in 1944 alone. The highest he had of all time is 2.5 million copies an issue. I have a lot of respect for what Cap did for comics. As much as Superman impacted things half the reason he did so was because of the competition Captain Marvel had with him, until DC sued Fawcett.

Yeah, but out of those 2.5 million kids who bought that issue, at least 2 million are dead, and Shazam hasn't been very relevant since that time.

Just sounds like a cheap idea to me. Granted I'm sure Supes is over powered compared to Cap now to right?

Actually, Shazam has magical powers now, like conjuring, reality manipulation, and can split his essence among his friends. In the few issues he's been in, he's been shown to be extremely powerful, but with little control of his abilities.

Anyways sorry about my own hang ups. I keep trying to see something positive in this new world from the outside, but rarely do I find it. Just seems to annoy me the more I read about it. lol. Sorry if that annoys my fellow posters.

I never liked the theme behind Kingdom Come. Despite it's amazing art. The premise just never sat well with me, and just seemed like an old man longing for his pre crisis version of the characters he liked well he complained about the story themes and techniques set into motion largely by writers like Alan Moore and companies like Marvel and the Independents. To me the subtitle of Kingdom Come could have been "Alan Moore and other independent writers ruined comics! They were better when I was a boy, and here's why!" Or "Modern superhero themes suck!"

Then again who am I to bitch since I see the new 52 the same way Ross saw the Post Crisis universe. lol

At least they actually read the books they were critiquing. That's why your fellow posters would be annoyed. You're like a small child that's wandered into the middle of a movie, with no frame of reference...

Yeah it does. Mostly because Shazam is a great character in his own right, and used to be recognized as a great hero in his own right. Granted I'm not sure how famous Shazam is in the N52, so maybe he doesn't mean much anymore, but that's bull in my opinion. The big red cheese as a great hero who inspired people on his own, and never before needed to use Clark's symbols and name. Billy should have his own symbol and name to live up to that inspires people because he is Captain Marvel.

Because either Billy is saying either "Alright, if you won't be the symbol we need, then I'll do it for you." or he's made a promise to Superman to watch over the world in his stead. Shazam has been around for a second in the New 52 universe. He doesn't really command any respect at this point.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm also on the camp that doesn't like that one more time Superman has given up.

Judging from the things he's said thus far (though admittedly slight), he's given up using the bulk of his powers and going by the Superman name. He hasn't given up helping people. Case in point and to use KC as the obvious frame of reference, he's not hiding out all alone in his Fortress having cast off the world, rather he's in Ethiopia trying to feed the country by creating viable soils. That's the one thing that makes the idea a little different, but a lot better, imo, this time around. His hang-up is with himself, something he did, not being mad at the people and punishing them.

Batman books are where it's at right now.

The Superman line needs and deserves an editor like Doyle. Any success the Super-books have seem to be in spite of its editor, and its been that way well before the reboot and now well into it. These characters deserve more than the tired Idleson and Berganza formulas. Get some new blood in there for god's sake.

[victorsage]

Yeah, but out of those 2.5 million kids who bought that issue, at least 2 million are dead, and Shazam hasn't been very relevant since that time.

Point being what? The number of people who actually read Action Comics #1 that are alive today must be miniscule if any do exist. Does that somehow mean we should ignore the ideals of the Golden Age? Yeah I know DC does but should we?

My point is and has been that Captain Marvel was bigger then Superman once upon a time. Half of the reason Superman became as powerful as he became was because DC was competing with Fawcett comics... and losing. The Big Red Cheese should stand alone, his history and heroism shouldn't be their to prop up Clark's universe. Shazam should be a symbol of hope on his own, why should DC make it seem that Captain Marvel doesn't give people enough hope unless he wears an S on his chest. That's stupid. Captain Marvel inspired a generation in his time to the point where he forced DC to evolve Superman's power level to compete.... so if anyone has been chasing someone, Supeman chased Captain Marvel and tried showing that he too could be that powerful. Not the other way around.

At least if we are going to be compelled to history as some claim we should be it should be a bit more universal. Which is the excuse given to why Superman should always be "the first" superhero to appear in the DC universe according to fans who love that idea in the new 52. Why? Because Superman was the first superhero to be published, which is debatable.

Actually, Shazam has magical powers now, like conjuring, reality manipulation, and can split his essence among his friends. In the few issues he's been in, he's been shown to be extremely powerful, but with little control of his abilities.

So he's Doctor Strange now? Which brings to my mind why doesn't DC trust Shazam's character enough to sell books? Sounds like weak writing to me.

At least they actually read the books they were critiquing. That's why your fellow posters would be annoyed. You're like a small child that's wandered into the middle of a movie, with no frame of reference...

Meh you don't like me either stop responding to me or put me on ignore. I'm not going to shut up critiquing the New 52, nor am I going to support it financially. I keep in contact because I want to support DC comics, but as it is it hasn't done anything to show me any hope. I still love the characters and will continue to defend them in their traditional forms and argue for better writing and for DC to actually trust their characters.

Because either Billy is saying either "Alright, if you won't be the symbol we need, then I'll do it for you."

Why would Billy not be a symbol as Captain Marvel? Cap has always been squeaky clean and honorable, even more so then Clark. How does putting an S on his chest make Billy more "symbolic" or "heroic" as "Superman" then he would be as Captain Marvel/Shazam (since you aren't suppose to call him Captain Marvel anymore)? If that becomes the in story reason that's horrible. It's beyond horrible it is insulting to the character.

or he's made a promise to Superman to watch over the world in his stead.

Which is fine, I'd expect Billy to do that... as Cap or as Shazam since we can't call him Captain Marvel anymore and all. Now maybe as Sacred Knight is hinting at he's doing it as a kind of trap towards another power. Or as a way to scare off someone else who is terrified of Clark. Which is ok to an extent, yet it still seems like a paper thin excuse story wise. It almost outright states the Cap is no match for Clark, therefor he is no match on his own against the character he is trying to deceive into believing his is Superman. So he's hoping by wearing the S on his chest that alone will scare this other character and make the world safe? That's.... still pretty insulting towards Captain Marvel.

Cause it seems to boils down to the idea of making Shazam's celebrity status in universe hinges on his connection to Superman, or at the very lest not be big enough compared to Superman to become a symbol on his own. Why? Because Clark is just that awesome compared to Billy? Why is that story wise? If Captain Marvel isn't big enough to fill Superman's shoes on his own., the question becomes why? Cause DC says so? That sounds like horrible story telling to me, and is insulting to the character and his history.

Shazam has been around for a second in the New 52 universe. He doesn't really command any respect at this point.

From the wiki articles and other people comments I've read I assumed that this was set five years in the future. So in that whole five years Billy's done nothing at all with his powers to inspire people? The Big Red Cheese at the very least should be seen as "the hero from Fawcett City" by then. Cap is the World's Mightiest Mortal, if the setting of the story is five years in the future that means Billy would be 17 (if he started as he traditionally does as a idealistic 12 year old). In that time I'd assume he would have done a considerable amount to command respect from both the populous and his fellow heroes on his own. Let's hope he hasn't been "Supergirled" sitting around until Superman is no longer around and the world needs him, because from the sounds of it that's what has happened.

Shazam should stand on his own two feet, not be the New 52's version of the Silver Age Supergirl. Now looking at DC's wiki on the "new" Shazam the first quote you see is:

I'm not supposed to be Shazam, Freddy. The Wizard said so himself.

-- Billy Batson

.... Oh yeah that gives me great confidence that they are doing right by Cap.