The Official Futures End(Superman's side) Discussion

[dumbduck]

If the war with Earth 2 happened. War with another earth. Not an evil earth. Diana is the God of War. If it affected Supes, imagine what it did to Diana. And. He left her. Wow. Jebus freaking Crist, DC. I thought new 52 was about recovering Superman.

[Sacred Knight]

Who says he left her? You're just assuming. Absolutely nothing saying yet that she doesn't know exactly where he is and what he's doing. Nothing saying they weren't even together anymore during the war. There's nothing saying a lot of things yet.

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Point being what? The number of people who actually read Action Comics #1 that are alive today must be miniscule if any do exist. Does that somehow mean we should ignore the ideals of the Golden Age? Yeah I know DC does but should we?

My point is and has been that Captain Marvel was bigger then Superman once upon a time. Half of the reason Superman became as powerful as he became was because DC was competing with Fawcett comics... and losing. The Big Red Cheese should stand alone, his history and heroism shouldn't be their to prop up Clark's universe. Shazam should be a symbol of hope on his own, why should DC make it seem that Captain Marvel doesn't give people enough hope unless he wears an S on his chest. That's stupid. Captain Marvel inspired a generation in his time to the point where he forced DC to evolve Superman's power level to compete.... so if anyone has been chasing someone, Supeman chased Captain Marvel and tried showing that he too could be that powerful. Not the other way around.

At least if we are going to be compelled to history as some claim we should be it should be a bit more universal. Which is the excuse given to why Superman should always be "the first" superhero to appear in the DC universe according to fans who love that idea in the new 52. Why? Because Superman was the first superhero to be published, which is debatable.

None of that has mattered since 1985. The Golden Age and Captain Marvel haven't been relevant for almost my entire life. Shazam hasn't translated well for decades, so DC has been taking a new route with the character. It seems to be working, based on the positive acclaim the Johns-written backups in JL received.

So he's Doctor Strange now? Which brings to my mind why doesn't DC trust Shazam's character enough to sell books? Sounds like weak writing to me..

It's not. As someone who actually read the series, it was well done and gave us an exciting new take on the character. A take that's been so good, people are dying for an ongoing.

Meh you don't like me either stop responding to me or put me on ignore. I'm not going to shut up critiquing the New 52, nor am I going to support it financially. I keep in contact because I want to support DC comics, but as it is it hasn't done anything to show me any hope. I still love the characters and will continue to defend them in their traditional forms and argue for better writing and for DC to actually trust their characters.

Nah. Start your own thread or buzz off. This is a thread about discussing the Futures End series (Superman's role). You can't discuss something you have no frame of reference for. That's trolling.

Why would Billy not be a symbol as Captain Marvel? Cap has always been squeaky clean and honorable, even more so then Clark. How does putting an S on his chest make Billy more "symbolic" or "heroic" as "Superman" then he would be as Captain Marvel/Shazam (since you aren't suppose to call him Captain Marvel anymore)? If that becomes the in story reason that's horrible. It's beyond horrible it is insulting to the character..

Read the book to find out, just like the rest of us.

Which is fine, I'd expect Billy to do that... as Cap or as Shazam since we can't call him Captain Marvel anymore and all. Now maybe as Sacred Knight is hinting at he's doing it as a kind of trap towards another power. Or as a way to scare off someone else who is terrified of Clark. Which is ok to an extent, yet it still seems like a paper thin excuse story wise. It almost outright states the Cap is no match for Clark, therefor he is no match on his own against the character he is trying to deceive into believing his is Superman. So he's hoping by wearing the S on his chest that alone will scare this other character and make the world safe? That's.... still pretty insulting towards Captain Marvel.

We'll find out this month.

Cause it seems to boils down to the idea of making Shazam's celebrity status in universe hinges on his connection to Superman, or at the very lest not be big enough compared to Superman to become a symbol on his own. Why? Because Clark is just that awesome compared to Billy? Why is that story wise? If Captain Marvel isn't big enough to fill Superman's shoes on his own., the question becomes why? Cause DC says so? That sounds like horrible story telling to me, and is insulting to the character and his history.

Read Future's End. It's actually getting pretty good.

From the wiki articles and other people comments I've read I assumed that this was set five years in the future. So in that whole five years Billy's done nothing at all with his powers to inspire people? The Big Red Cheese at the very least should be seen as "the hero from Fawcett City" by then. Cap is the World's Mightiest Mortal, if the setting of the story is five years in the future that means Billy would be 17 (if he started as he traditionally does as a idealistic 12 year old). In that time I'd assume he would have done a considerable amount to command respect from both the populous and his fellow heroes on his own. Let's hope he hasn't been "Supergirled" sitting around until Superman is no longer around and the world needs him, because from the sounds of it that's what has happened.

In the middle of the five years, there was a war between two earths. That probably didn't help make Shazam universally loved.

Shazam should stand on his own two feet, not be the New 52's version of the Silver Age Supergirl. Now looking at DC's wiki on the "new" Shazam the first quote you see is:



.... Oh yeah that gives me great confidence that they are doing right by Cap.

Read the book. It was good.

[victorsage]

None of that has mattered since 1985. The Golden Age and Captain Marvel haven't been relevant for almost my entire life.

I don't think that's true at all. Anytime people have problems with how a character is being presented the appeal to "the standard" which has been, and continues to be how the characters are presented largely in the Golden Age. Because that is how their creators made them. It's one think to set up a universe where the character is nothing like they are suppose to be, good stories have been written that way, but this is suppose to be the mainstream universe which means you are suppose to be appealing to the essence of every character.

Shazam hasn't translated well for decades, so DC has been taking a new route with the character.

That's ridiculous. That just shows the weakness of the writers then, because their forebearers were able to create compelling stories with the character in the original form. They don't need to be perfect copies, but the Mightiest Mortal has an essence to his character the same way Clark has an essence that makes him Superman. Billy has never been less of an idealistic hero then Clark, in fact it's traditional to show him as being even more of a boyscout then Clark is. Which makes sense because Billy is an idealistic kid living up to an idealistic standard beyond the realm of pragmatism.

It seems to be working, based on the positive acclaim the Johns-written backups in JL received.

Not really. Comic book sales are horribly down, and really don't matter to the companies as a whole especially if you compared sales today to what they were during the Golden Age. DC comic's as well as Marvel survives because of the way their parent companies can market the characters in other media forms. If they sold the number of copies that the Golden Age sold the comics may matter more to their parent companies, but they don't know. DC hasn't sold multi millions of copies in decades. All I'm suggesting is that if you honored how the characters are actually suppose to be, modern writers may also be able to write stories that inspire people and bring in larger audiences.

And if those time periods "didn't matter" they wouldn't keep trying to return to them for inspiration, and when you weight their success against today you can only state that the modern age is a poor excuse of story telling compared to their forbears. Especially if positive acclaim, and therefor sales statistic ultimately, are you measurement. If those periods didn't matter Superman still wouldn't be known is the popular mind as the defender of "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". If those stories didn't matter they wouldn't echo into today. Not only do they continue to echo they set a standard, a standard that every story is measured against.

It's not. As someone who actually read the series, it was well done and gave us an exciting new take on the character. A take that's been so good, people are dying for an ongoing.

Sounds like you don't like the character as he is traditional portrayed, but you do like a version of the character who is different from what he has always been. Which is fine up to a point. I'm not here to make you change your mind, I'm simply here defending the types of character I enjoy.

Nah. Start your own thread or buzz off. This is a thread about discussing the Futures End series (Superman's role). You can't discuss something you have no frame of reference for. That's trolling.

No actually, criticizing the New 52, the DC universe in general, and how Superman and other characters are represented in the modern comic form is something I can criticizes throughout as much as I want. And doing that in the setting of the Future Ends series with the best information I have is also staying on topic of the thread. It's not trolling, and I don't need to buy any series when I can read reviews, wiki synopsis, and listen to other posters and superhero fans to get a point of reference.

Talking about how characters are being represented horribly is a fine criticism. And from what I've seen Superman's only direct impact in Future End's so far is as a cyborg in the prologue, and as a "symbol". Since any other time at least since chapter 15 Superman is in fact Shazam.

Or as I stated it's hinted at being a kind of trap that amounts to this. Force X fears Superman. Captain Marvel isn't as strong as Superman, but wants to defend Earth so he's pretending to be Superman to keep Force X in check in order to defend Earth. Which in the end basically amounts to Shazam and every other hero is outclassed by Superman to the point where the Earth's only hope is to bluff their way out of it. That's not a very inspiring story imo. Cap being an equal or near equal to Clark is more respectful and true to their characters. At least to me. He seems instead to be no more then a decoy at best, and unable to inspire people on his own at worst.

You see I stand up for the characters as they have been portrayed in the past, and what amounts to their true essence as characters. Which DC doesn't seem to understand if Billy isn't suppose to be worthy of the mantel of Captain Marvel. Which doesn't surprise me since they haven't really altered any character in a positive way nor returned them to their roots that I have seen. Morrison came close at the very beginning of the reboot for Supes but it was minimal and didn't have a lasting impact.

I not liking the way DC has developed it's universe or is using its character isn't "trolling" it's stating my opinions. If you don't like my opinions or only want to read people who love what DC has done then don't read my post. As long as I stay on task and talk about how a character is being presented in a story I'm on topic. You not liking my opinions doesn't matter.

Read the book to find out, just like the rest of us.

Ah no. DC will get no money from me by way of their mainstream books. The only cash I give WB today as far as comics goes comes from the Fables series.

Read Future's End. It's actually getting pretty good.

Nope. Wiki synopsis, blog post, and discussions with fellow fans of the character is all DC will get from me now. From what I've seen or been told, that has been set out as the facts, themes, and settings of the story so far I'm not impressed. You enjoy it, and I'm more then happy that you do. I'm still going to stick up for the characters when I think they aren't being used well. If in the end I'm proved wrong then I'd be more then happy to admit it and see it happen. I care about these characters for they had an impact on my childhood and hope nothing but the best for them. So far though (and not only in this arc) I'm not impressed with the changes DC have made.

Which isn't to say you or anyone else is wrong for liking this version of the character.

In the middle of the five years, there was a war between two earths. That probably didn't help make Shazam universally loved.

So in five years during a time of great conflict Shazam has never saved people, inspired them, defended the innocents, stood up for the oppressed, or generally helped the common man at all? He hasn't proved himself to anyone? You can read a story like that and not see the problem with the writing? In such a horrible universe a character with the characterizations of Captain Marvel (a bright eyed idealistic boy who wants to defend traditional rights and wrong or at least that is what he is suppose to be) should be able to prosper pretty easily in the setting. Unless he did little to nothing. I see no other logical reason that he wouldn't have stepped up in that very situation.

Of course you'd also have to respect the character for that to happen. And not make him a second class hero. You know give some hints towards the characters roots... a character so beloved that it forced other characters like Superman to evolve in order to keep up with Cap. Things like that. Captain Marvel has not only been wish fulfillment for kids, he's also always been a character who is idealistic about doing right in the world for everyone. Which is a positive message. With the starting point now being though that Billy "isn't worthy" to be Shazam from the beginning.... well that's the exact opposite of how the character is suppose to be set up. And now with it being hinted at that he is indeed a second rate Superman who isn't quite up to the task of the original... well that's even a larger insult to the original character. Lest that is how I see it. Maybe in the end I'll be proved wrong and Billy will save the day, and we see him leading the way to victory along with a fresh faced Clark. But it doesn't seem to be that way since he obviously failed in the original timeline.

[Prime]

I'm more angry about Superman giving up. But I suppose there must be a reason.

[manofsteel1979]

The Superman line needs and deserves an editor like Doyle. Any success the Super-books have seem to be in spite of its editor, and its been that way well before the reboot and now well into it. These characters deserve more than the tired Idleson and Berganza formulas. Get some new blood in there for god's sake.

ALL THIS. 100 times yes. Idelson was a disaster and Berganza has only improved things slightly. Fresh blood is needed....someone who hasn't already played in the Superman sand box.

[manofsteel1979]

In reference to Shazam in the new 52....look, I was probably was one of the biggest nay sayers in terms of how the New 52 version of Billy started. (those that remember me from the old DC Message Board know i was pretty anti-New 52 everything in the early months!) To me the reinvention of Billy as a bit of a brat to start was one of the worst offenders and was a prime example of how the new 52 was all horrid and Dan Didio was an idiot and blah blah etc *..However in spite of it all, I grew to like it, as Billy had a really nice character arc from brat to a character pretty damn close to he Pre-Flashpoint self...and the very fact that in Future's End,Billy was willing to sub for Clark for the sake of the world and without any sense of hubris shows he has for sure grown into the optimistic young man he was before.

I too am a little annoyed we are getting another story where Superman gave up...but at least he isn't a shut in at the fortress doing nothing. He is STILL trying to help people in his own way, so he hasn't completely given up his mission. He just feels for some reason he is unworthy of wearing that mantle atm. I just hope the reason given is compelling and convincing that we can buy Kal actually giving up his role, and not be the usual cliched reasons we've seen in the past. (at least it's clear Lois is alive 5 years later..and as far as we know Ma & Pa are still dead and were never revived only to lose them again to make him emo...so those reasons are off the table.)

*I'm still not convinced that Dan Didio isn't an idiot. Perhaps not a blithering idiot...but....

[manofsteel1979]

Nah. Start your own thread or buzz off. This is a thread about discussing the Futures End series (Superman's role). You can't discuss something you have no frame of reference for. That's trolling.

Okay first off, Victor has complete right to discuss his issues with the way Shazam/Capt Marvel is portrayed in the new 52 and as shown in this series. He is not trolling. He is not out to force his opinion down your throat. There are much better examples of trolls on this board without naming names. (hint...they hang around the MOS discussion threads posting pretty much the same two or three posts with just a few tweaks here and there). Just because he isn't reading FE or any new 52 book doesn't mean he isn't entitled to discuss his opinions based on things he's read and seen discussed. He is at least keeping up with things via diff sources.

On a personal note, I have not been following FE every issue myself(mostly due to financial reasons, as I am limited to how many comics I can afford atm,In fact the only comics I am currently purchasing regularly are SUPERMAN, ACTION and BATMAN. ), but I have been keeping up with it thanks to previews, spoilers and discussions here and elsewhere. Based on your attitude towards victor, I suppose I'm not allowed to join in the discussion either?

[Black Angel]

The war must have really messed him up if John constantine is giving a pep talk about the great good.

[Sacred Knight]

I too am a little annoyed we are getting another story where Superman gave up...but at least he isn't a shut in at the fortress doing nothing. He is STILL trying to help people in his own way, so he hasn't completely given up his mission. He just feels for some reason he is unworthy of wearing that mantle atm. I just hope the reason given is compelling and convincing that we can buy Kal actually giving up his role, and not be the usual cliched reasons we've seen in the past. (at least it's clear Lois is alive 5 years later..and as far as we know Ma & Pa are still dead and were never revived only to lose them again to make him emo...so those reasons are off the table.)

I still think that he's responsible for Batman's crippled body, and he feels he lost the right to wear the shield because of it. Perhaps they were on differing sides of what to do during the war, something major happened and the two clashed and in the emotion of the moment Batman's literally crushed by his power. So he feels he's no longer worthy of that power.

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Talking about how characters are being represented horribly is a fine criticism. And from what I've seen Superman's only direct impact in Future End's so far is as a cyborg in the prologue, and as a "symbol". Since any other time at least since chapter 15 Superman is in fact Shazam.

Or as I stated it's hinted at being a kind of trap that amounts to this. Force X fears Superman. Captain Marvel isn't as strong as Superman, but wants to defend Earth so he's pretending to be Superman to keep Force X in check in order to defend Earth. Which in the end basically amounts to Shazam and every other hero is outclassed by Superman to the point where the Earth's only hope is to bluff their way out of it. That's not a very inspiring story imo. Cap being an equal or near equal to Clark is more respectful and true to their characters. At least to me. He seems instead to be no more then a decoy at best, and unable to inspire people on his own at worst.

None of this is true, which you would know if you were reading the book.

I didn't want to put you on ignore because it's clear you have a solid knowledge of DC history, which would make for great reading on threads that are there to celebrate DC's publishing history. But since it's clear that, like a Southern politician, all you want to do is rail about how they're changing your history and complain about how better things used to be, that's where you'll go.

[Flash Gordon]

I bought Future's End last week even though I've been ignoring the story. Put Lois Lane on the cover and I'm powerless to not pick it up. Was fairly certain that "masked Superman" was Kon or John Henry Irons (which would make sense). Don't mind it being Billy, he's a better character than Kon and he realizes the innate power of the symbol of the House of El, so that's cool. Dig Henry Cavill hanging out in Africa and rocking that cool beard. Not bad. Just tired of all these "SUPERMAN GETS SAD AND QUITS" stories. That's just not what he does.

[Prime]

The war must have really messed him up if John constantine is giving a pep talk about the great good.

About the war....is that coming next year?

[Warrior10]

Honestly I don't really care about the idea of the mantel of Superman passing onto Superboy or Supergirl. That if anything makes some kind of sense. The idea of Shazam giving up his superhero identity and taking Supermans is odd. Shazam is his own hero, with his own following and style. He doesn't need to pretend to be Clark. So I don't know what your bitching about, because I never said Superboy or Supergirl couldn't take up Clark's mantel, just that Shazam has his on identity to live up to.

Yes u did bitch about it, saying that Shazam was being demoted to Steel, Superboy, Supergirl and the Eradicator. I don't care either if u don't care abot the mantle of Superman being passed to to Superboy, or Supergirl. Though I think Superboy and Supergirl could easily do their own thing in the Future.

[stephens2177]

Kara it seems went all "cyborg supergirl" in five years,and kon has been depowered plus is on a obsessive mission to did the world of his clones( atleast that's what I get from the preview).so they are busy, if they wasn't I might have a slight issue myself.