Which Great Marvel Run do you think is overrated?

[newparisian]

Planet Hulk. This always read as a very basic story to me. One guy stands up against oppressors, then previous cynics also join in. That's the plot of a million books and movies. Gladiator is a famous example.

[Steroid]

Hawkeye by Fraction. Every month reading this series it felt like Fraction was trying to one up himself in making Clint pathetic and incompetent. The character still hasn't recovered from this run and I truly don't get how it gets so much praise.

[K7P5V]

Hawkeye by Fraction. Every month reading this series it felt like Fraction was trying to one up himself in making Clint pathetic and incompetent. The character still hasn't recovered from this run and I truly don't get how it gets so much praise.

Agreed. No mask! No costume!! No service!!! (LOL):

[newparisian]

Hawkeye by Fraction. Every month reading this series it felt like Fraction was trying to one up himself in making Clint pathetic and incompetent. The character still hasn't recovered from this run and I truly don't get how it gets so much praise.

I think that run is a good example of, well, do we keep using character X the same way they've always been used and only their hardcore fans like him and he can't hold down a book that lasts even a dozen issues, OR do we put him in different trappings, add some indie comic flavor and retain enough of the old him (the Ship of Theseus question) for the story to still work?

For me, the story still works. The purple toga Clint was only appealing to the same old niche. Now at least he has one acclaimed, well-selling, MCU-influencing run to his name, which wasn't the case before. Was the trade-off worth it? I think it was. It's the same thing with Hickman's usage of Moira McTaggart. For me, she was always a whatever character. Like, she was there to support, but if she died (which she did for years on end) did I miss her or care? No. At least now (before things went off the rails with Inferno) she at least became much more high profile and "important". Same for Luke Cage pre and post Bendis.

As for "still hasn't recovered from this run", I think that's more down to Clint killing Hulk in CW2 that, at least for me, was WTF in a bad way. But like Wanda in Disassembled leading to Bendis' Avengers run (which I loved), Hulk dying there led to Immortal Hulk, so I don't know, things worked out...?

[newparisian]

Agreed. No mask! No costume!! No service!!! (LOL):

Are you saying that's an example of bad writing? Because that reads pretty badass to me. The further Clint moves away from Cap's influence, the more his rough-n-tumble carny brawler side comes out.

[Steroid]

I think that run is a good example of, well, do we keep using character X the same way they've always been used and only their hardcore fans like him and he can't hold down a book that lasts even a dozen issues, OR do we put him in different trappings, add some indie comic flavor and retain enough of the old him (the Ship of Theseus question) for the story to still work?

For me, the story still works. The purple toga Clint was only appealing to the same old niche. Now at least he has one acclaimed, well-selling, MCU-influencing run to his name, which wasn't the case before. Was the trade-off worth it? I think it was. It's the same thing with Hickman's usage of Moira McTaggart. For me, she was always a whatever character. Like, she was there to support, but if she died (which she did for years on end) did I miss her or care? No. At least now (before things went off the rails with Inferno) she at least became much more high profile and "important". Same for Luke Cage pre and post Bendis.

As for "still hasn't recovered from this run", I think that's more down to Clint killing Hulk in CW2 that, at least for me, was WTF in a bad way. But like Wanda in Disassembled leading to Bendis' Avengers run (which I loved), Hulk dying there led to Immortal Hulk, so I don't know, things worked out...?

What I mean by "still hasn't recovered" is that writers still treat him like Hawkguy to where he's an incompetent man-child as opposed to a person that has led Avengers teams and the Thunderbolts.

[newparisian]

What I mean by "still hasn't recovered" is that writers still treat him like Hawkguy to where he's an incompetent man-child as opposed to a person that has led Avengers teams and the Thunderbolts.

He's led teams since Fraction's run, no? Isn't he leading the current Thunderbolts?

I wasn't a big fan of the Rosenberg mini, mind; that felt like backsliding. But otherwise, Clint, in stuff like Occupy Avengers or Secret Avengers (Kot), comes across as a bit disorganized in his personal life, sure, but still pretty competent and kick ass. There's always going to be writers that take things too far in one direction, like JMS making Tony a war profiteer during Civil War, for example.

[Gaastra]

I can get that. I think for fans at the time it felt cathartic because so much of the Illuminati had gotten away with their crimes or being jerks or their general hubris to the point where Hulk steamrolling them felt like actual justice. It's why Bill Fosters' son joined up with the Warbound because his dad was killed in Civil War.

Does not give hulk a pass for hurting heroes who were innocent or even people he was friends with like spider-man than forcing them to fight each other so he can watch? Sorry he is a bad guy at that point. plus oops it wasn't even them but one of his own troops who did the crime making him more a bad guy!

Planet hulk was fine but even when it was out thought wwh was awful.

One good part i can say i liked however was when strange couldn't get into hulks mind while hulk was talking to rick and rick tells him captain america is dead it shocks hulk so much he lets down his guard and strange gets in!

That was a great scene. Hulk just couldn't believe cap was dead.

[Tofali]

People here seem to generally think Jonathan Hickman's adjectiveless Avengers was great. I... do not.

I really REALLY tried to get in to it but I gave it up. It was cruelly boring lol! but I did love his New Avengers (I was anticipating each issue)

[Alex_Of_X]

Every third reply in this thread is like a knife to my heart! Ach, no, my babies!!

Quite sobering to see such a wide swath of tastes. No one classic run--no matter how lauded--can satisfy everyone, it seems. Best keep that in mind going into a forum tbh.

That said, Simonson's Thor, esp the gap between the Beta Ray issues and the war with Surtur. Gorgeous art and heapes of ink wasted on a bore of Thor playing as a...foreman? Frog stuff is peak tho!

[HaveAtThee]

JMS' Thor is certainly overhyped. It's a story that has great themes but is massively decompressed and was cut short before JMS could pay off any of the set-up he started with. It sort of reminded me of JMS' Superman run with the whole "Superman being introspective and walking around." The art was excellent and it's a shame that the editors at that time didn't just let JMS finish what he started before doing the "Siege" event.

[Shadowcat]

Bendis’s Avengers, Morrison’s New X-Men, Whedon’s Astonishing, JMS’s Amazing Spider-Man

[Grapeweasel]

Ultimate Spider-Man.

Cherry-picking the best parts of 40 years of hard work, adding absolutely nothing original, and acting like you were actually creating something.

[Username taken]

JMS' Thor is certainly overhyped. It's a story that has great themes but is massively decompressed and was cut short before JMS could pay off any of the set-up he started with. It sort of reminded me of JMS' Superman run with the whole "Superman being introspective and walking around." The art was excellent and it's a shame that the editors at that time didn't just let JMS finish what he started before doing the "Siege" event.

This.

JMS Thor wasn’t what it’s cracked up to be.

[Solid Snake]

Ed Brubaker's Captain America for me. I think a few years later Nick Spencer showed everybody how it should be done by using similar themes with Brubaker.