Marvel phase 5 problem & critique

[phonogram12]

Well, how much should a characters' actual characterization actually change?

Winter Soldier's a good example. Cap went from being willing to tow the company line to realizing that blind faith in institutions is fool hardy. Ragnarok is another. To say that he's not changed by the revelations of his father, his newfound relationship with his brother, and realizing it's people and not a place that make Asgard would be a fallacy to say the least. And Spider-Man Far From Home went from Pete thinking he had to fill IM's shoes to realizing that just being himself is already doing that. All these examples fundamentally shook each of these characters worldviews.

I thought their version of T'Challa was awesome! And Hawkeye was classic Hawkeye.

Still going to disagree about BP. He just came off as pretty typically stoic without that many other layers to him. And I never really cared for Hawkeye prior to Fraction's run, so the EMH version of him left me cold, too.

Wasp being bubbly was kind of why she was so memorable and cute and set up what I expect from The Wasp (better than Hope "it's about darn time" Van Dyne ever did). She was basically just channeling Jans' energy and sass from the comics.

IDK, she just came off as what a middle aged man would believe a teenage girl would act like to me, tbh.

They all had the perfect voices for those characters.

I really didn't care for Tony's. I realize that this is what they were probably going for, but it just came off as a cheap copy of RDJ's. Cap's just reminds me of a quote I remember reading from Mark Waid in how he did not want his Cap to be portrayed. Basically like an old man in a young man's body calling fully grown men "son."

[Frontier]

Winter Soldier's a good example. Cap went from being willing to tow the company line to realizing that blind faith in institutions is fool hardy. Ragnarok is another. To say that he's not changed by the revelations of his father, his newfound relationship with his brother, and realizing it's people and not a place that make Asgard would be a fallacy to say the least. And Spider-Man Far From Home went from Pete thinking he had to fill IM's shoes to realizing that just being himself is already doing that. All these examples fundamentally shook each of these characters worldviews.

I don't think Dark World was a dramatic change, but I think there was still an arc for Thor in that movie even if it wasn't executed as well as it could have been.

Still going to disagree about BP. He just came off as pretty typically stoic without that many other layers to him. And I never really cared for Hawkeye prior to Fraction's run, so the EMH version of him left me cold, too.

He was a bit of a straight man (especially to Hawkeye) but I think he had his humorous moments. I don't think it was that different from MCU T'Challa, and the show got to explore the different layers of his character as a king, spiritualist, hyper-competent tactician, and teammate over time.

I really dislike Fraction's Hawkeye (and the whole "Hawkguy" concept) and vastly prefer EMH's version, so I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that .

IDK, she just came off as what a middle aged man would believe a teenage girl would act like to me, tbh.

Is this like how you think some versions of Catwoman come off as more immature and childlike ?

I don't think they were trying to write her as a teenager. Youthful? Yeah. But still a grown woman.

I really didn't care for Tony's. I realize that this is what they were probably going for, but it just came off as a cheap copy of RDJ's. Cap's just reminds me of a quote I remember reading from Mark Waid in how he did not want his Cap to be portrayed. Basically like an old man in a young man's body calling fully grown men "son."

Compared to some of the other RDJ sounding VA's they've given Tony, I always felt like Eric Loomis was the most natural (especially since it's his actual voice) and he got to show off his emotional range over the course of the show.

Brian Bloom is also one of my favorite Cap voices, actually. He did a great job of conveying Cap's strength of character, command, and integrity. And then got to twist it as Skrull Cap. I still read comic Cap in his voice.

[phonogram12]

I don't think Dark World was a dramatic change, but I think there was still an arc for Thor in that movie even if it wasn't executed as well as it could have been.

And that was the entire problem. Which was fixed with Ragnarok.

He was a bit of a straight man (especially to Hawkeye) but I think he had his humorous moments. I don't think it was that different from MCU T'Challa, and the show got to explore the different layers of his character as a king, spiritualist, hyper-competent tactician, and teammate over time.

IMHO, EMH was hugely different from the MCU's version. You really got a bit more of BP's humanity in the movies. On EMH, he was a bit of a stiff.

I really dislike Fraction's Hawkeye (and the whole "Hawkguy" concept) and vastly prefer EMH's version, so I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that .

Ha! Why break a streak?

Is this like how you think some versions of Catwoman come off as more immature and childlike ?

I don't think they were trying to write her as a teenager. Youthful? Yeah. But still a grown woman.

If this were Jubilee I could see that interpretation being a bit more valid.

Compared to some of the other RDJ sounding VA's they've given Tony, I always felt like Eric Loomis was the most natural (especially since it's his actual voice) and he got to show off his emotional range over the course of the show.

He did have a bit more layers to him, but keep in mind, they were also basing this version on the MCU version.

[Brian B]

While I certainly have no love for some of what they have done or are about to do in the MCU, I think it’s pretty evident at the box office that Marvel’s Phase 4 went swimmingly and Phase 5 is poised to do the same.

Any criticisms of it seem like sour grapes from us older comics fans.

As an older comics fan who liked earlier, somewhat different versions of the MCU characters, there’s lots not to like or critique in the movies or shows. I don’t love the Sub-Mariner, some of the Guardians, or what they seem about to do with Warlock, or the High Evolutionary’s costume. I could go on about my issues with Kang.

However, from a view of management of their IP and making stories that appeal to your average moviegoer or streaming subscriber these days, it’s hard to find any fault at all with the MCU franchises, especially compared to other companies managing IP franchises. Look at all the Bond films, or Star Wars, Indiana Jones, or, of course, the DCEU or DC Studios movies or whatever label WB Discovery sticks on their fare. Marvel has had no complete stinker stories, and financially, they’re printing money, practically.

Unlike those properties, MCU is the crown of Disney’s jewels these days. Even Pixar has had flops. The MCU, especially this year, are slaying their competition. Just look at those results.

The MCU is doing so well, they’ve been practically saving theater chains all over the country for the last couple years.

The only problem with Phase 4 and 5 seems to be how some of us feel about them, not the reviews or the receipts with Phase 4 or what’s coming down the pike.

[80sbaby]

I like you.

EDIT: But it's Phase 4, not 5.

[Brian B]

I like you.

EDIT: But it's Phase 4, not 5.

You are very right about that. I have edited my post accordingly. Maybe the thread title should change to “…Phase 4 and going into Phase 5 problem…?” Although, it doesn’t really matter.

The “phases” are just product development and release schedules, basically. As a pretty cohesive, fictional multiverse, they do bleed over, one into the other, seamlessly.

[Maestro 216]

While I certainly have no love for some of what they have done or are about to do in the MCU, I think it’s pretty evident at the box office that Marvel’s Phase 4 went swimmingly and Phase 5 is poised to do the same.

Any criticisms of it seem like sour grapes from us older comics fans.

As an older comics fan who liked earlier, somewhat different versions of the MCU characters, there’s lots not to like or critique in the movies or shows. I don’t love the Sub-Mariner, some of the Guardians, or what they seem about to do with Warlock, or the High Evolutionary’s costume. I could go on about my issues with Kang.

However, from a view of management of their IP and making stories that appeal to your average moviegoer or streaming subscriber these days, it’s hard to find any fault at all with the MCU franchises, especially compared to other companies managing IP franchises. Look at all the Bond films, or Star Wars, Indiana Jones, or, of course, the DCEU or DC Studios movies or whatever label WB Discovery sticks on their fare. Marvel has had no complete stinker stories, and financially, they’re printing money, practically.

Unlike those properties, MCU is the crown of Disney’s jewels these days. Even Pixar has had flops. The MCU, especially this year, are slaying their competition. Just look at those results.

The MCU is doing so well, they’ve been practically saving theater chains all over the country for the last couple years.

The only problem with Phase 4 and 5 seems to be how some of us feel about them, not the reviews or the receipts with Phase 4 or what’s coming down the pike.

I think people forget internet opions don't reflect average movie goers. They likely won't care about Erza's issues when they see Flash. Look at how the Anti Faxx news about Shuri's actor disappeared when WF dropped.

[Frontier]

And that was the entire problem. Which was fixed with Ragnarok.

I think Ragnarok's problem was so much got undercut by the irreverent nature of the characters to what was going on at the time.

IMHO, EMH was hugely different from the MCU's version. You really got a bit more of BP's humanity in the movies. On EMH, he was a bit of a stiff.

I think he had his humorous moments, especially bouncing off of Hawkeye or when he knocked Tony down a peg.

If this were Jubilee I could see that interpretation being a bit more valid.

It was pretty true to spirit of Jan's characterization in the early Avengers, but the story and cast never treated her like a child. I mean, she was running Hanks' business, her relationship with Hank was pretty adult, she just had the most infectious enthusiasm of the team at being a hero.

He did have a bit more layers to him, but keep in mind, they were also basing this version on the MCU version.

I know, but he got to develop beyond that.

[phonogram12]

I think Ragnarok's problem was so much got undercut by the irreverent nature of the characters to what was going on at the time.

Critical response and box office would disagree with you on that one.

I think he had his humorous moments, especially bouncing off of Hawkeye or when he knocked Tony down a peg.

What was missing were moments with the people closest to him, like his friends and family. People almost treated him with reverence every single moment he appeared on screen and appeared to be less of a character and more of an archetype.

It was pretty true to spirit of Jan's characterization in the early Avengers, but the story and cast never treated her like a child. I mean, she was running Hanks' business, her relationship with Hank was pretty adult, she just had the most infectious enthusiasm of the team at being a hero.

IDK, to me Hank never really seemed to treat her as an equal. As for her characterization and it's similarities to her early appearances...well, those were also written by middle aged men lol

I know, but he got to develop beyond that.

He was one of my least favorite characters on the show so (tbh) that may've been something I may've missed.

[Brian B]

I think people forget internet opions don't reflect average movie goers. They likely won't care about Erza's issues when they see Flash. Look at how the Anti Faxx news about Shuri's actor disappeared when WF dropped.

That’s exactly it. We’re the weird, old, sometimes rabid, comics fanbase of these characters. We compare these movies so much to what has gone on in the comics, we miss what is actually good about these MCU movies.

I think it’s also why so many of us — me included, I’m not throwing stones here — were crazy for DC’s SnyderVerse. Squint at it the right way, and it’s reminiscent of the comics, a little. We totally miss that the stories and characterizations are not that good. Look at how much people like Black Adam around here, IMO due to things like getting a pretty good visual likeness compared to the comics. Dr. Fate looks like Dr. Fate. Hawkman looks like Hawkman. So, we like it! But we totally miss that the story is garbage and that it’s a terrible movie.

There’s no problem with the MCU. We don’t see that. I don’t see that. I want a red and white High Evolutionary with part of a clothing iron on top of his helmet! I’m not geting that, though. Geez, Guardians 3 sucKzzz!!! Except it might not stink at all, but I’m too hung up on Kirby’s exact visualization to notice what the MCU is getting right.

Critics and box office agree. Why don’t some comics fans? We’re still in love with Kirby’s drawings and designs.

BTW, I do respectfully disagree about Ezra and the Flash. WB Discovery and DC Studios have a major problem on their hands with that whole mess. It is purely because of Miller’s “personal” problems. A drug addict with a gun fetish and cult of personality absconding with teenagers is a horrible thing. People will care about that. The money they have invested might be better spent as a total loss rather than risk turning large portions — all of DC basically — of their IP into totally toxic, brand-ending, damaged goods. There is no argument to be made for Miller. No side of any political aisle will offer cover for Miller, and they’re not. If your fun family fare stars a violent, manipulative, drug-addicted, kidnapping psychopath as the “hero,” that’s too much for any reasonable person to take or excuse. Consumers will decide that is not a family friendly or, Hell, human friendly company at all. It could easily be viewed as just a cesspool of money grubbers without conscience, an enterprise enriching a hard criminal element. I can’t imagine how WB will handle that release. They should sh!t-can that movie. End of story.

[Frontier]

Critical response and box office would disagree with you on that one.

I know, and I'll always stand up as the dissenting voice .

What was missing were moments with the people closest to him, like his friends and family. People almost treated him with reverence every single moment he appeared on screen and appeared to be less of a character and more of an archetype.

But the point was him bonding with the team (and the team becoming his friends). I mean, the show treated him like an utter badass, which he is, but we got to see him learn to trust and work with the rest of the Avengers. It basically modernized how Black Panther is meant to work in The Avengers.

IDK, to me Hank never really seemed to treat her as an equal. As for her characterization and it's similarities to her early appearances...well, those were also written by middle aged men lol

I don't think it was a matter of not seeing Jan as an equal so much as they're differing opinions on how to use their abilities and whether they wanted to be Superheroes. Hank was also protective of her, but that was more out of love than seeing her as being incapable.

I guess I just don't see where she comes off like she's written by middle-aged men? Beyond having a deliberately "fun" and sassy personality?

He was one of my least favorite characters on the show so (tbh) that may've been something I may've missed.

I think Secret Invasion was a pretty pivotal arc for him.

[phonogram12]

But the point was him bonding with the team (and the team becoming his friends). I mean, the show treated him like an utter badass, which he is, but we got to see him learn to trust and work with the rest of the Avengers. It basically modernized how Black Panther is meant to work in The Avengers.

I didn't get any of that, tbh. All I saw was them treating him with utter reverence all the time. Not a whole lot of character development to be taken out of that.

I guess I just don't see where she comes off like she's written by middle-aged men? Beyond having a deliberately "fun" and sassy personality?

The thing is, that seemed to be all there was to her.

I think Secret Invasion was a pretty pivotal arc for him.

*shrugs*

His personality seemed to go back to status quo really fast after that, imho.

[Frontier]

I didn't get any of that, tbh. All I saw was them treating him with utter reverence all the time. Not a whole lot of character development to be taken out of that.

Well, define "reverence." Most of the team treated him like a normal guy (well, other than his weird moments where he'd pop out and act like Batman) and there was some tension when he chose Wakanda over the Avengers, but later chose to go back to the Avengers because he enjoyed being one (kind of like the comics).

Hawkeye never treated him any differently.

The thing is, that seemed to be all there was to her.

Caring, sweet, funny, vulnerable, petty, surprisingly resilient...I think she was pretty multi-faceted .

*shrugs*

His personality seemed to go back to status quo really fast after that, imho.

I think part of that might have been because of the shift from the main writing team to Man of Action taking over which is when the quality of the writing started dipping a little.

[Maestro 216]

That’s exactly it. We’re the weird, old, sometimes rabid, comics fanbase of these characters. We compare these movies so much to what has gone on in the comics, we miss what is actually good about these MCU movies.

I think it’s also why so many of us — me included, I’m not throwing stones here — were crazy for DC’s SnyderVerse. Squint at it the right way, and it’s reminiscent of the comics, a little. We totally miss that the stories and characterizations are not that good. Look at how much people like Black Adam around here, IMO due to things like getting a pretty good visual likeness compared to the comics. Dr. Fate looks like Dr. Fate. Hawkman looks like Hawkman. So, we like it! But we totally miss that the story is garbage and that it’s a terrible movie.

There’s no problem with the MCU. We don’t see that. I don’t see that. I want a red and white High Evolutionary with part of a clothing iron on top of his helmet! I’m not geting that, though. Geez, Guardians 3 sucKzzz!!! Except it might not stink at all, but I’m too hung up on Kirby’s exact visualization to notice what the MCU is getting right.

Critics and box office agree. Why don’t some comics fans? We’re still in love with Kirby’s drawings and designs.

BTW, I do respectfully disagree about Ezra and the Flash. WB Discovery and DC Studios have a major problem on their hands with that whole mess. It is purely because of Miller’s “personal” problems. A drug addict with a gun fetish and cult of personality absconding with teenagers is a horrible thing. People will care about that. The money they have invested might be better spent as a total loss rather than risk turning large portions — all of DC basically — of their IP into totally toxic, brand-ending, damaged goods. There is no argument to be made for Miller. No side of any political aisle will offer cover for Miller, and they’re not. If your fun family fare stars a violent, manipulative, drug-addicted, kidnapping psychopath as the “hero,” that’s too much for any reasonable person to take or excuse. Consumers will decide that is not a family friendly or, Hell, human friendly company at all. It could easily be viewed as just a cesspool of money grubbers without conscience, an enterprise enriching a hard criminal element. I can’t imagine how WB will handle that release. They should sh!t-can that movie. End of story.

I don't doubt no matter what Erza's done after Flash, but DC has potentially four movies next year. Shazam, Blue Beetle, Flash, and Aquaman. They might have enough movie to make all four come out plus if they wanna reboot the universe Flashpoint would be the answer.

[phonogram12]

Well, define "reverence." Most of the team treated him like a normal guy (well, other than his weird moments where he'd pop out and act like Batman) and there was some tension when he chose Wakanda over the Avengers, but later chose to go back to the Avengers because he enjoyed being one (kind of like the comics).

I guess this is something else we'll have to disagree on.

Hawkeye never treated him any differently.

That's because he was pretty one note on the show.

Caring, sweet, funny, vulnerable, petty, surprisingly resilient...I think she was pretty multi-faceted .

So pretty much the way every other middle aged white dude writes a token woman on a superhero team.

I think part of that might have been because of the shift from the main writing team to Man of Action taking over which is when the quality of the writing started dipping a little.

Fair enough. That said, in the episodes where it was the original creative team, there really wasn't much than the status quo with Tony.