Marvel phase 5 problem & critique

[Sutekh]

Iron Man, Captain America and the Avengers were underwhelming? I completely disagree; just my opinion.

Thor (and Incredible Hulk, if that even counts) are the only ones I found disappointing. Captain America and Iron Man both surprised me with how much I liked them, and while I could pick a dozen specific things about Avengers I didn't love (no Wasp! just to pick one thing!), it blew me away with how many great moments it had, and. again, was just surprisingly good to me, considering I'm not the world's biggest Avengers fan.

[Albert1981]

The quality of the Marvel movies have been criticized since Iron Man. This idea that the quality started off high and has only recently started to fall is some “good old days” nonsense. We were discussing all the same “problems” back then that we are here and now.

People were calling superhero fatigue after the first Avengers. The movies have always been criticized for vfx, especially the Hulk movies, and abundant use of cgi in general. The writing and plot holes were always coming under fire even in their biggest hits, how did all that time travel stuff with Cap work in Endgame?

The MCU is incredible but it has always been flawed. If people are only starting to see the cracks now then maybe they are consuming too much and the answer isn’t for Marvel to slow down and stop expanding. The answer is to just take a break and only engage with the parts of the MCU that interest you.

Is that so hard?

I agree that the MCU is absolutely incredible, but I don't buy the argument that the MCU should continue expanding at its current rate. That point of view might have worked when Marvel Studios was releasing two or three movies a year (and most of them being around only two hours in length). Sitting through a "mid" Marvel movie is not a big deal. Even sitting through three consecutive Marvel films a year that are not so hot allows people to be "caught up" on things in the MCU. It's palatable to mainstream audiences. And probably at least one of those films will be pretty good (if we're going by past MCU performances at the box office). It's the adding of three or four Disney Plus shows per year (each of which are more than five hours in length) which continue to introduce unrecognizable properties (alongside three movies a year some of which are closer to three hours) that are wearying audiences. There are WAY too many stories going on at the SAME TIME right now. And we have WAY too many characters showing up while older ones are still hanging around (in my view to their detriment). And we have multiple timelines existing in the MCU as well (which include properties from non-Disney Marvel content). NONE of that **** happened between 2008-2020. When we get to Phase 5, the movies/shows are probably gonna bring up events in previous phases that fans won't even remember or care about. Folks are interested in OTHER things (which take up time to engage in), so they'll tell themselves "well, we'll catch up on the Marvel stuff later." But if they miss too much, LOTS of those people are GONNA say "**** it, we give up" and stop watching. And I don't think Disney/Marvel can allow that to happen. Look at the reaction to the Marvel delays of their movies and shows. There's basically been no outcry over the postponement of future Marvel releases at all. To me, that just shows Marvel is shitting out content too quickly. Do you really want the MCU to turn into the Simpsons (where general audiences are largely indifferent to what that once popular show's creators are making these days)? Because if the MCU continues on its current trajectory, I'm pretty confident people will eventually give up on the franchise. To me, the Marvel delays just made the MCU fanboys who keep telling people "if you don't like the MCU movies/shows, don't watch them" look like absolute CLOWNS. Because Disney obviously sees that general audiences are taking their shitty advice and it's starting to hurt their viewership numbers.

[Jokerz79]

I agree that the MCU is absolutely incredible, but I don't buy the argument that the MCU should continue expanding at its current rate. That point of view might have worked when Marvel Studios was releasing two or three movies a year (and most of them being around only two hours in length). Sitting through a "mid" Marvel movie is not a big deal. Even sitting through three consecutive Marvel films a year that are not so hot allows people to be "caught up" on things in the MCU. It's palatable to mainstream audiences. And probably at least one of those films will be pretty good (if we're going by past MCU performances at the box office). It's the adding of three or four Disney Plus shows per year (each of which are more than five hours in length) which continue to introduce unrecognizable properties (alongside three movies a year some of which are closer to three hours) that are wearying audiences. There are WAY too many stories going on at the SAME TIME right now. And we have WAY too many characters showing up while older ones are still hanging around (in my view to their detriment). And we have multiple timelines existing in the MCU as well (which include properties from non-Disney Marvel content). NONE of that **** happened between 2008-2020. When we get to Phase 5, the movies/shows are probably gonna bring up events in previous phases that fans won't even remember or care about. Folks are interested in OTHER things (which take up time to engage in), so they'll tell themselves "well, we'll catch up on the Marvel stuff later." But if they miss too much, LOTS of those people are GONNA say "**** it, we give up" and stop watching. And I don't think Disney/Marvel can allow that to happen. Look at the reaction to the Marvel delays of their movies and shows. There's basically been no outcry over the postponement of future Marvel releases at all. To me, that just shows Marvel is shitting out content too quickly. Do you really want the MCU to turn into the Simpsons (where general audiences are largely indifferent to what that once popular show's creators are making these days)? Because if the MCU continues on its current trajectory, I'm pretty confident people will eventually give up on the franchise. To me, the Marvel delays just made the MCU fanboys who keep telling people "if you don't like the MCU movies/shows, don't watch them" look like absolute CLOWNS. Because Disney obviously sees that the general audiences are taking their shitty advice and its starting to hurt their viewership numbers.

The over saturation argument seems over blown. Phase 3 is when Marvel Studios started regularly releasing 3 films a year so from 2017 to the Pandemic/Marvel Studios taking over Fox and Marvel TV Marvel released.

MCU Films: GOTG Vol. 2, Homecoming, Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Captain Marvel, Endgame, & Far From Home.

MCU TV Shows: Agents of Sheild, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Ironfist, Punisher, Defenders, Inhumans, Runaways, & Cloak and Dagger.

Non MCU TV Shows: Legion & Gifted.

Non MCU Marvel Films: X-Men Apocalypse, X-Men Dark Phoenix, Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Logan, New Mutants, & Venom.

19 MCU Films and TV Shows. 9 Non MCU Marvel TV Shows and films. 28 in total in 3 years.

Since 2020 Marvel has released

MCU TV: Wandavision, Loki, Hawkeye, What If, Moonknight, She-Hulk, & Ms. Marvel.

Non MCU Marvel TV: Hellstrom.

MCU Films: Black Widow, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Way Home, Into the Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, and Wakanda Forever.

Non MCU Films: Venom 2 & Morbius.

That 17 in total in 2 years and only 13 are MCU connected and live action vs 19 from before.

& this year No Way Home which was a billion dollar, Multiverse of Madness made 955 Million & Thor Love and Thunder made 760 Million. Wakanda Forever looks to do gangbusters. So yeah the Box Office is strong and they're even releasing less product so the argument of fatigue and over saturation always seems overblown to me.

[krazijoe]

The over saturation argument seems over blown. Phase 3 is when Marvel Studios started regularly releasing 3 films a year so from 2017 to the Pandemic/Marvel Studios taking over Fox and Marvel TV Marvel released.

MCU Films: GOTG Vol. 2, Homecoming, Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Captain Marvel, Endgame, & Far From Home.

MCU TV Shows: Agents of Sheild, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Ironfist, Punisher, Defenders, Inhumans, Runaways, & Cloak and Dagger.

Non MCU TV Shows: Legion & Gifted.

Non MCU Marvel Films: X-Men Apocalypse, X-Men Dark Phoenix, Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Logan, New Mutants, & Venom.

19 MCU Films and TV Shows. 9 Non MCU Marvel TV Shows and films. 28 in total in 3 years.

Since 2020 Marvel has released

MCU TV: Wandavision, Loki, Hawkeye, What If, Moonknight, She-Hulk, & Ms. Marvel.

Non MCU Marvel TV: Hellstrom.

MCU Films: Black Widow, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Way Home, Into the Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, and Wakanda Forever.

Non MCU Films: Venom 2 & Morbius.

That 17 in total in 2 years and only 13 are MCU connected and live action vs 19 from before.

& this year No Way Home which was a billion dollar, Multiverse of Madness made 955 Million & Thor Love and Thunder made 760 Million. Wakanda Forever looks to do gangbusters. So yeah the Box Office is strong and they're even releasing less product so the argument of fatigue and over saturation always seems overblown to me.

The only Fatigue I see is the use of Fatigue as reasoning.
I say give me more, they don't all need to be intertwined just like every comic doesn't reference every other comic. Do you only read one comic an no others? Why can't the TV medium be like a comic book?

[Colossus1980]

Since 2020 Marvel has released

MCU TV: Wandavision, Loki, Hawkeye, What If, Moonknight, She-Hulk, & Ms. Marvel.

You forgot Falcon and Winter Soldier, I am Groot shorts, and Werewolf by Night Halloween special.

[Menacer]

Iron Man, Captain America and the Avengers were underwhelming? I completely disagree; just my opinion.

Even if I give you Iron man and cap and Avengers it's still only like 7 films outta 24 ...

Hmm I dunno all the films are kindof watchable to boring but these are the stand out ones...

Phase 1
Mostly average or poor Films except maybe
Iron man maybe?
Captain America maybe?
Avengers maybe?

Phase 2 stand out Films
Winter soldier
GoTG

Phase 3
Thor Ragnarok
Infinity War

Phase 4???
No way home??
Love and Thunder??
Dr Strange MOM?

I don't think I've seen a single marvel film more then once outside GOTG. Which I've seen twice.

This is all the films thus far




The Infinity Saga

Phase One

• Iron Man (2008)

• The Incredible Hulk (2008)

• Iron Man 2 (2010)

• Thor (2011)

• Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)

• The Avengers (2012)

Phase Two

• Iron Man 3 (2013)

• Thor: The Dark World (2013)

• Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)

• Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)

• Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

• Ant-Man (2015)

Phase Three

• Captain America: Civil War (2016)

• Doctor Strange (2016)

• Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017)

• Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)

• Thor: Ragnarok (2017)

• Black Panther (2018)

• Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

• Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018)

• Captain Marvel (2019)

• Avengers: Endgame (2019)

• Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019)

The Multiverse Saga

Phase Four

• Black Widow (2021)

• Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (2021)

• Eternals (2021)

• Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021)

• Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (2022)

• Thor: Love and Thunder (2022)

• Black Panther 2 Wakanda Forever

[Albert1981]

The over saturation argument seems over blown. Phase 3 is when Marvel Studios started regularly releasing 3 films a year so from 2017 to the Pandemic/Marvel Studios taking over Fox and Marvel TV Marvel released.

MCU Films: GOTG Vol. 2, Homecoming, Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, Infinity War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Captain Marvel, Endgame, & Far From Home.

MCU TV Shows: Agents of Sheild, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Ironfist, Punisher, Defenders, Inhumans, Runaways, & Cloak and Dagger.

Non MCU TV Shows: Legion & Gifted.

Non MCU Marvel Films: X-Men Apocalypse, X-Men Dark Phoenix, Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Logan, New Mutants, & Venom.

19 MCU Films and TV Shows. 9 Non MCU Marvel TV Shows and films. 28 in total in 3 years.

Since 2020 Marvel has released

MCU TV: Wandavision, Loki, Hawkeye, What If, Moonknight, She-Hulk, & Ms. Marvel.

Non MCU Marvel TV: Hellstrom.

MCU Films: Black Widow, Shang-Chi, Eternals, No Way Home, Into the Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, and Wakanda Forever.

Non MCU Films: Venom 2 & Morbius.

That 17 in total in 2 years and only 13 are MCU connected and live action vs 19 from before.

& this year No Way Home which was a billion dollar, Multiverse of Madness made 955 Million & Thor Love and Thunder made 760 Million. Wakanda Forever looks to do gangbusters. So yeah the Box Office is strong and they're even releasing less product so the argument of fatigue and over saturation always seems overblown to me.

Before 2021, I also shared the opinion of many MCU stans that Marvel fatigue was not really a "thing". A couple of movies a year is NOT a big ask in my view. Even three movies a year was fine in Phase 3. And often times that third Marvel movie was a collaboration between Disney and Sony (for Spider-Man), so Marvel Studios was not being spread too thin at the time. I don't feel the same way at all heading into 2023. Folks could totally enjoy the MCU just by watching Marvel Studios's movies. Watching non-MCU Marvel stuff was absolutely not required. I think four shows and four movies a year is an insane ask being made by Disney, and I think Marvel Studios realizes this now and slowed down their release schedule (an excellent move from my vantage point). Sure Marvel movies are making a ton of money, but if they cost $400 million to produce and market, their films have to be better received in order to make their investments worthwhile. Films like No Time to Die and Thor: Love & Thunder cost so much, there are rumors they might not even have been profitable (or profitable ENOUGH). I do have higher hopes for Black Panther 2 because I think Coogler is a great director and the trailers looked fantastic. But I don't think the MoM and L&T did it any favors. NWH and Deadpool/Wolverine cameo candy isnt a sustainable plan either.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

All I'm reading is a bunch of people claiming "This is just my opinion, you can't attack it"...

...and then attacking other peoples' opinions.

If you don't like MCU movies, that's cool. It doesn't mean they don't have value for other people. It doesn't mean it doesn't have quality. It's just not for you.

The constant topics about the MCU just shows that they're highly popular, and lots of people like them.

Nobody's made a 500th thread about the supposed Universal Monsters Universe.

[CSTowle]

Yes, they're popular things. Like McDonalds hamburgers or boy bands in the late '90s. Nothing wrong with liking the popular thing. Something wrong with not liking people for not liking the popular thing. Enjoy liking the popular thing, it's far more enjoyable than having Disney fatigue.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Yea, popularity means a lot of people like something. If that pisses someone off, that speaks more on them.

The adult thing to do (and this is my “opinion”, so remember…it can’t be wrong and you can’t attack it) is just to let it go and focus on other things.

The world isn’t going to collapse if the people that hate the MCU just ignore it. If anything, those people might get what they want if the popularity and attention fades.

[CSTowle]

I'd agree, just arguing the other group has just as many fragile and outspoken commenters who reflexively attack any sign of speaking against the Mouse. I'm firmly in the "I'm optimistic for the future" crowd. I do think this current moment is a dip in quality, but I see good things ahead. And I feel the reflexively defensive group has been more outspoken and insulting of anyone with a different opinion than the reflexive hater crowd, at least in this thread, so it's worth pointing out.

I see no reason to be "pissed off" if something you don't like is popular, but I also don't see that happening, almost literally anywhere. Some disappointment, some "meh" reactions, some (like myself) hopeful it's just them in an experimental phase and hoping some percentage of it becomes the bones of future projects instead of a period to forget. And, of course, some who just won't like anything Disney does no matter what. But all of the anger seems to be coming from those defending the "honor" of Phase 4 Disney products, which is odd.

[80sbaby]

I'd agree, just arguing the other group has just as many fragile and outspoken commenters who reflexively attack any sign of speaking against the Mouse. I'm firmly in the "I'm optimistic for the future" crowd. I do think this current moment is a dip in quality, but I see good things ahead. And I feel the reflexively defensive group has been more outspoken and insulting of anyone with a different opinion than the reflexive hater crowd, at least in this thread, so it's worth pointing out.

I see no reason to be "pissed off" if something you don't like is popular, but I also don't see that happening, almost literally anywhere. Some disappointment, some "meh" reactions, some (like myself) hopeful it's just them in an experimental phase and hoping some percentage of it becomes the bones of future projects instead of a period to forget. And, of course, some who just won't like anything Disney does no matter what. But all of the anger seems to be coming from those defending the "honor" of Phase 4 Disney products, which is odd.

Your first paragraph is demonstrably false. This isn't a "same thing, both sides" situation and you know it. There's not dozens of YouTube channels dogging out people who dislike the MCU. You don't see multiple topics made about how wonderful the MCU is and dismiss anyone who disagrees. There's not the same pushback at all.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Dog people aren’t better just because they like dogs and not cats.

Dog people that constantly complain about cats existing are weird.

Dog people that constantly complain about cats they purposely go out and adopt are even weirder.

[Adam Allen]

The argument about a glut or oversaturation -- requiring too much of fans' time, to keep up with everything -- isn't really convincing to me, because I feel like the MCU movies/shows have really done a pretty good job of making their projects able to be enjoyed without having watched previous things. Like yeah, you get more out of Infinity War/Endgame if you've seen all (or most) of the other movies, but it's not like you have to have watched any other movies, to enjoy and understand what's going on in those. WandaVision too, I watched with someone who has never read a comic and had never seen any of the earlier movies; they enjoyed it, and it made them want to see MoM.

I've watched most of the MCU stuff from the start, but I haven't watched all of it, including some of the more recent stuff. I have never felt like I am lost, because of the ones I haven't seen.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Before 2021, I also shared the opinion of many MCU stans that Marvel fatigue was not really a "thing". A couple of movies a year is NOT a big ask in my view. Even three movies a year was fine in Phase 3. And often times that third Marvel movie was a collaboration between Disney and Sony (for Spider-Man), so Marvel Studios was not being spread too thin at the time. I don't feel the same way at all heading into 2023. Folks could totally enjoy the MCU just by watching Marvel Studios's movies. Watching non-MCU Marvel stuff was absolutely not required. I think four shows and four movies a year is an insane ask being made by Disney, and I think Marvel Studios realizes this now and slowed down their release schedule (an excellent move from my vantage point). Sure Marvel movies are making a ton of money, but if they cost $400 million to produce and market, their films have to be better received in order to make their investments worthwhile. Films like No Time to Die and Thor: Love & Thunder cost so much, there are rumors they might not even have been profitable (or profitable ENOUGH). I do have higher hopes for Black Panther 2 because I think Coogler is a great director and the trailers looked fantastic. But I don't think the MoM and L&T did it any favors. NWH and Deadpool/Wolverine cameo candy isnt a sustainable plan either.

People complain, yet they keep rocking up to watch the films and stream the tv shows. For all the flack MoM received, it fell short of a billion. A Doctor Strange film. If fatigue had set in, the film's would be going backwards in terms of box office, yet they aren't.

The problem is people use IW, Endgame and NWH as the benchmark and those had unique factors working in their favour and are "event" films. Not every film is designed to make a billion (sure Disney wouldn't scoff if they did) but we need to be realistic in terms of expected box office regarding certain characters.

If people expected Black Widow to make $1b, then they were having an absolute lend of themselves. Those who point at it and go "See! If couldn't even make $1b, it sucks!" Are also being foolish. It was never designed to do so.