Clone Saga discussion

[Kaitou D. Kid]

the issue is that editorial has a bad habit of treating clones as not real people. Lots of writers do that and it's just dumb. It ruins the idea of there being a clone if the clone is a disposable.

Honestly, a Spider-Man clone is really hard to write without breaking away from Spider-Man's everyman status. It's part of why I was never crazy about Ben Reilly. Writers treat his identity issues as being the same as that of non-clones (which is absurd) or go full-in on what it's like to be a literal duplicate of another human being... which no one who is alive can relate to, and at that point Ben is more of a sci-fi character than an everyman.

[Huntsman Spider]

Heh, except... it'd only be an end if the next writer played into it. How much of the setup would be gone? What would MJ feel about it? Would it reset to when they started dating?

Fair points there.

Honestly, a Spider-Man clone is really hard to write without breaking away from Spider-Man's everyman status. It's part of why I was never crazy about Ben Reilly. Writers treat his identity issues as being the same as that of non-clones (which is absurd) or go full-in on what it's like to be a literal duplicate of another human being... which no one who is alive can relate to, and at that point Ben is more of a sci-fi character than an everyman.

A fair point, but since "relatability" as an excuse to keep Spider-Man (Peter Parker) unmarried has been overplayed to the point of meaninglessness, a clone of Spider-Man isn't the worst way to go. The idea, ultimately, is an experiment in existentialism, namely trying to define just what makes humanity what it is and whether such a thing can ever be truly reproduced or replicated.

[boots]

Honestly, a Spider-Man clone is really hard to write without breaking away from Spider-Man's everyman status. It's part of why I was never crazy about Ben Reilly. Writers treat his identity issues as being the same as that of non-clones (which is absurd) or go full-in on what it's like to be a literal duplicate of another human being... which no one who is alive can relate to, and at that point Ben is more of a sci-fi character than an everyman.

while i do think the writers shouldn't have mined ben's clone status as much as they did, oddly enough i was able to relate to his isolation and feelings of displacement and erasure, especially as a teen

[boots]

Fair points there.



A fair point, but since "relatability" as an excuse to keep Spider-Man (Peter Parker) unmarried has been overplayed to the point of meaninglessness, a clone of Spider-Man isn't the worst way to go. The idea, ultimately, is an experiment in existentialism, namely trying to define just what makes humanity what it is and whether such a thing can ever be truly reproduced or replicated.

yeah, the idea of "relatability" and "every man" has fractured in modern entertainment...if it ever really existed

i think ben could lean into the existential stuff as you say but also some of the more mundane stories too. some of the ones people consider to be his classics were very much the latter

[Huntsman Spider]

yeah, the idea of "relatability" and "every man's had fractured in modern entertainment...if it ever really existed

I think ben could lean into the existential stuff as you say but also some of the more mundane stories too. some of the ones people consider to be his classics were very much the latter

That's also a very good point, especially given when you bring up the idea of "relatability," the increasingly inevitable counter-question is, "Relatable to whom, exactly?"

[Kaitou D. Kid]

A fair point, but since "relatability" as an excuse to keep Spider-Man (Peter Parker) unmarried has been overplayed to the point of meaninglessness, a clone of Spider-Man isn't the worst way to go. The idea, ultimately, is an experiment in existentialism, namely trying to define just what makes humanity what it is and whether such a thing can ever be truly reproduced or replicated.

while i do think the writers shouldn't have mined ben's clone status as much as they did, oddly enough i was able to relate to his isolation and feelings of displacement and erasure, especially as a teen

Fair points. Personally, now that Spider-Verse is a thing, I think the idea of Ben Reilly works better through Spider-Verse than through clones. Imagine there is a universe with a 19-year old Peter Parker who experienced everything from the first 150 issues of ASM (which is when Ben Reilly is first created). He somehow finds his way into the actual 616 and is stuck there, so he takes up the name Ben Reilly and dies his hair blond to differentiate himself from 616 Peter. I feel like if they reboot Ben Reilly like this, you can still capture the feelings of isolation anf displacement and erasure without the complicated stuff that comes with clones.

[Sr. Bungle]

while i do think the writers shouldn't have mined ben's clone status as much as they did, oddly enough i was able to relate to his isolation and feelings of displacement and erasure, especially as a teen

That's how I felt as a teen exactly.
Ben struggles were highky relatable to me, clone or not.
The same thing that happened to a lot of peole regarding mutants (another sci - fi concept for characters)

[boots]

Fair points. Personally, now that Spider-Verse is a thing, I think the idea of Ben Reilly works better through Spider-Verse than through clones. Imagine there is a universe with a 19-year old Peter Parker who experienced everything from the first 150 issues of ASM (which is when Ben Reilly is first created). He somehow finds his way into the actual 616 and is stuck there, so he takes up the name Ben Reilly and dies his hair blond to differentiate himself from 616 Peter. I feel like if they reboot Ben Reilly like this, you can still capture the feelings of isolation anf displacement and erasure without the complicated stuff that comes with clones.

that's actually a pretty cool spin on the ben reilly concept, i love it

though the nuance in displacement is different: alt ben would still feel he has a family and home "out there" in his home universe. clone ben was never able to reach out to his out of fear of rejection or unworthiness (ASM 400, where ben grieves on the roof top as may passes is still quintessential reilly in my books)

that being said, there's all sorts of fascinating stuff that could be explored with alt ben...though idk if it makes him less sci fi

[boots]

That's how I felt as a teen exactly.
Ben struggles were highky relatable to me, clone or not.
The same thing that happened to a lot of peole regarding mutants (another sci - fi concept for characters)

glad to hear i'm not the only one, mate

for me personally, i knew what mutants were meant to represent but i never *felt* it. i did with ben

[marhawkman]

glad to hear i'm not the only one, mate

for me personally, i knew what mutants were meant to represent but i never *felt* it. i did with ben

well, Xmen had a very vaguely defined representation angle.it was too vague to really hit as a group thing. but I don't think it was meant to. the oppression analogy wasn't meant to extend that far.

Fair points. Personally, now that Spider-Verse is a thing, I think the idea of Ben Reilly works better through Spider-Verse than through clones. Imagine there is a universe with a 19-year old Peter Parker who experienced everything from the first 150 issues of ASM (which is when Ben Reilly is first created). He somehow finds his way into the actual 616 and is stuck there, so he takes up the name Ben Reilly and dies his hair blond to differentiate himself from 616 Peter. I feel like if they reboot Ben Reilly like this, you can still capture the feelings of isolation anf displacement and erasure without the complicated stuff that comes with clones.

Enh, my counter to this is that it just isn't Ben Reilly then.

[boots]

well, Xmen had a very vaguely defined representation angle.it was too vague to really hit as a group thing. but I don't think it was meant to. the oppression analogy wasn't meant to extend that far.Enh, my counter to this is that it just isn't Ben Reilly then.

yeah, i'm not criticising x-men, though you're probably right for why it hit different. the specificity in ben's story, despite him not being written intentionally as an allegory is what made him so easy to identify with i think

i like the alt ben pitch for two reasons: he's a peter parker who can't be "the" peter parker. and he's a riff on 616 ben, in the way i see noir as a riff on 616 peter

i wouldn't want him to replace ben.

[Refrax5]

Fair points. Personally, now that Spider-Verse is a thing, I think the idea of Ben Reilly works better through Spider-Verse than through clones. Imagine there is a universe with a 19-year old Peter Parker who experienced everything from the first 150 issues of ASM (which is when Ben Reilly is first created). He somehow finds his way into the actual 616 and is stuck there, so he takes up the name Ben Reilly and dies his hair blond to differentiate himself from 616 Peter. I feel like if they reboot Ben Reilly like this, you can still capture the feelings of isolation anf displacement and erasure without the complicated stuff that comes with clones.

Honestly, considering that mad scientists and experiments gone wrong are a big part of Spider-Man from the beginning, the clone stuff always made more sense to me than the Spider-Verse stuff and the totem stuff.

And I always found Ben relatable, often more relatable than Peter. Of course nobody can literally relate to being a clone, but nobody can relate to having spider powers or traveling to other planets or dimensions. Most of us never dated a supermodel either. Mutants aren't real either, but people certainly relate to the X-Men.

And if Peter is an everyman to some degree, then I don't think Ben needs to be. That's Peter's thing. Part of what makes Ben interesting is the ways he's different from Peter anyway.