Clone Saga discussion

[Xwho]

In the clone saga mini series Harry said about years and plans against Peter.

That seems to say this Harry was more active as a foe against Peter.

Was any of this said about a Harry in interviews with the writers or anyone else?

[JTait]

I started reading Spider-Man during the Clone Saga, and at the time I was obviously hooked. I've re-read it in its entirety since and, taken as a whole, I don't think it's as bad as is made out. It obviously went on for longer than was intended, and lots of the plotting was very incoherent, but the first few arcs were pretty good and I really like the period with Ben as Spider-Man, as well as the post-Revelations era (if this counts). A lot of the artwork (early Bagley, Weiringo, Jr Jr, Jurgens, Buscema) is great too.

I think the biggest problem with the Clone Saga is that when it was bad, it was REALLY bad. Maximum Clonage is probably the worst Spider-Man story of all time and the Scarlet Spider titles go under the radar as one of the most pointless pieces of nonsense ever published under the Spider-Man banner.

Incredibly though, I do think it's worth reading for those who are new to the character. I never would have imagined myself saying this 10-15 years ago.

[Alex_Of_X]

As a late reader, born smack dab in the Clone Saga's peal, it was this mythic, maligned beast.

In reading it's, surprisingly, quite coherent and a lot of fun!

But...woof, I don't envy anyone who had to read it monthly. It's basically "BEYOND" on steroids: weekly issues by shifting writers and artists, detours, a glacial pace with Claremontian walls of narration for a year and a half?

I don't think we keep it in mind, but the COST of following clone saga Spider-man has to be over 200$ by 1996-97, right? You can buy all of Sandman with that!

[Rabidrage]

nicely thought out post, thank you. my journey with the clone saga was pretty similar with a lot of the same feelings, though personally i didn't have access or cash to buy the whole lot as a kid (even as an adult i still haven't read the complete saga). i found it engrossing and thrilling on a new level. i also feel like kaine as a character was built to serve best in that atmosphere too.

as a writer, you might be interested in this interview Howard Mackie + Terry Kavanagh. they go into how coordinated (and uh...uncoordinated) the collaboration could be.

personally, i prefer not to see all of ben's appearances as part of the overall saga even though i know that's the tendency (i cut it off when ben "resumes" the mantle of spider-man) but i do like the way you paint it as a cohesive whole. strikes me as something you can only really do with the comic book medium, which is cool.

Thanks. I've had many years to think about these things, and most of it is stuff I've said in one form or another in other places. But I am always up for a fresh discussion of the saga and its myriad wonders. I feel ya on not having unlimited cash. In the intervening years, I caught up on some of the tie-in stuff I missed. Hadn't read any of the Silver Sable stuff til the 2010s, as well as a few other weird outliers.

It kind of has to be a cohesive whole. Peter goes off to Portland, but he stays embroiled in the adventure even then. He isn't gone long, and even while he is, that skull gets unearthed, Kaine comes back, the whole thing never really goes away.

I've read a few different accounts about how it all got out of control. For my part, I'm actually glad it did.

I forgot in my original comment to talk about how I would have ended it. In retrospect, it always seemed like it would have been perfect, and perfectly awesome. I remember promos during that time for Onslaught saying that the event would bring about the return of the one true Spider-Man. Nobody knew what that meant, however...

We never saw Spidey at the final battle, despite a cameo of him in the final FF issue helping fight sentinels. He and Peter were headed to the scene in his own books, but never made it there. What if he had? Imagine if Ben had sacrificed himself with the FF and Avengers. While he was away, Peter could have somehow discovered that he's really not the clone. Meanwhile, Ben would be reborn in Heroes Reborn as a "real" Spider-Man. He could either stay there, or come back and be as real as Peter.

[HypnoHustler]

We never saw Spidey at the final battle, despite a cameo of him in the final FF issue helping fight sentinels. He and Peter were headed to the scene in his own books, but never made it there. What if he had?

Yeah… you’re right. I never really thought much about that. Maybe it was setting up DeFalco’s quick fix of having a Sentinel step on Ben (or was that another writer who spitballed that one?).

[David Walton]

Thanks. I've had many years to think about these things, and most of it is stuff I've said in one form or another in other places. But I am always up for a fresh discussion of the saga and its myriad wonders. I feel ya on not having unlimited cash. In the intervening years, I caught up on some of the tie-in stuff I missed. Hadn't read any of the Silver Sable stuff til the 2010s, as well as a few other weird outliers.

It kind of has to be a cohesive whole. Peter goes off to Portland, but he stays embroiled in the adventure even then. He isn't gone long, and even while he is, that skull gets unearthed, Kaine comes back, the whole thing never really goes away.

I've read a few different accounts about how it all got out of control. For my part, I'm actually glad it did.

I forgot in my original comment to talk about how I would have ended it. In retrospect, it always seemed like it would have been perfect, and perfectly awesome. I remember promos during that time for Onslaught saying that the event would bring about the return of the one true Spider-Man. Nobody knew what that meant, however...

We never saw Spidey at the final battle, despite a cameo of him in the final FF issue helping fight sentinels. He and Peter were headed to the scene in his own books, but never made it there. What if he had? Imagine if Ben had sacrificed himself with the FF and Avengers. While he was away, Peter could have somehow discovered that he's really not the clone. Meanwhile, Ben would be reborn in Heroes Reborn as a "real" Spider-Man. He could either stay there, or come back and be as real as Peter.

I like your thought process here.

I don't know if any Spider-Man discussions ever involved Onslaught. It's a really cool story idea but I think it would have been vetoed for financial reasons. Marvel wouldn't want to split the Spider-Man readership down the middle and farm half the interest in their most popular character out to Jim Lee or Rob Liefeld.

HEROES REBORN was an act of desperation, and no one knew if Marvel would ever publish the Avengers or FF in the 616 again.

[David Walton]

Yeah… you’re right. I never really thought much about that. Maybe it was setting up DeFalco’s quick fix of having a Sentinel step on Ben (or was that another writer who spitballed that one?).

That sounds like a comment made as a joke...of course, so was Peter David's "why doesn't Magneto just rip Wolverine's adamantium skeleton out?"

DeFalco says he had a back door to bring Peter back as the one true Spider-Man, but I don't know if it came up as one of the proposed solutions or if he dropped it altogether.

[Xwho]

no idea. not well enough to warrant more ben reilly stories, which was part of what defalco was hoping for:

TD: I don’t want to ruin things, but one of my goals on this series is that this thing will sell so well that Marvel will be forced to give Ben Reilly a monthly comic book! That’s my goal. How is that possible? Is that possible? Hey, we saw 12 years of Spider-Girl! I think we can see 24 years of Ben Reilly!

Defalco interview on "The Clone Saga" mini

on one of your older questions about the original plans for ben, here's a quote from JMD

The Clone Saga went on for quite a while after my departure, and—for reasons that were beyond the control of the writers and artists working on the books—the story seemed to change direction every few months. I was disappointed by the ending that finally saw print, but, of course, I’m biased: I still think our original ending should have been the ending: Ben becomes Spider-Man. Peter, MJ and the baby go off together. One of the important points we were trying to make was that wearing tights and punching people isn't the only way—or the best way—to prove that "with great power comes great responsibility." Raising a child with intelligence, compassion and love is the perhaps the greatest responsibility there is. I'm sorry we lost that. It would have been a powerful statement to come from the flagship character of the Marvel Universe. "Yes, folks, super hero adventures are great fun...but, in the real world, it's compassion and human decency that counts."

JMD blog post "Cloning around"

I could prefer they did not get rid of the baby, did not bring Norman back and kept Ben as the original and Peter the clone thou they may have had for him to take Back the Peter Parker identity for it to stick.

It can feel like a waste.

[HypnoHustler]

That sounds like a comment made as a joke...of course, so was Peter David's "why doesn't Magneto just rip Wolverine's adamantium skeleton out?"

DeFalco says he had a back door to bring Peter back as the one true Spider-Man, but I don't know if it came up as one of the proposed solutions or if he dropped it altogether.

Well… I know it probably wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. I think it was from ‘101 Ways to End the Clone Saga…’ (or maybe I read it in ‘Life of Reilly’… one of the two). Now that I think about it, I think DeFalco suggested Ben simply melt one evening while he’s going for a walk, and Jurgens suggested the Sentinel stepping on him.

From my understanding of the back door…. too many contradictory story developments had happened by the end for it to make any sense. I’m not sure if he’s ever revealed what the back door was.

[boots]

Well… I know it probably wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. I think it was from ‘101 Ways to End the Clone Saga…’ (or maybe I read it in ‘Life of Reilly’… one of the two). Now that I think about it, I think DeFalco suggested Ben simply melt one evening while he’s going for a walk, and Jurgens suggested the Sentinel stepping on him.

i think the suggestions from writers all wanted to take respect for the character and readership into consideration, so i don't believe either deflaco or jurgens suggested the sentinel thing.

defalco was in favour of combining ben and peter into one person, validating both their histories and then having "benter" and mj split.

jurgens suggested that the smokestack skeleton be the original clone from the original saga, ben was a new one and would die saving peter from dr octopus (who would be revealed as the mastermind rather than norman) much like revelations ended up doing.

hilariously, there were serious considerations for using mephisto at the time to resolve it all. a time loop solution was the forerunner for some time until busiek threw in his 2 cents saying that the story had to be a spidey story in order to work.

the melt thing might have been dezagos' suggestion that they do a storyline called death of the clone, implying to the readers that peter was about to melt. then, ben would melt instead.

From my understanding of the back door…. too many contradictory story developments had happened by the end for it to make any sense. I’m not sure if he’s ever revealed what the back door was.

according to defalco, he and gruenwald both agreed to keep a backdoor of seward manipulating the tests just in case the readership didn't like the switch between ben and peter.

greenberg disputed that by saying if a backdoor had been in place, they'd never have spent months agonising on how to switch ben and peter back.

defalco believes greenberg was mistaken in his memory.

[boots]

I like your thought process here.

I don't know if any Spider-Man discussions ever involved Onslaught. It's a really cool story idea but I think it would have been vetoed for financial reasons. Marvel wouldn't want to split the Spider-Man readership down the middle and farm half the interest in their most popular character out to Jim Lee or Rob Liefeld.

HEROES REBORN was an act of desperation, and no one knew if Marvel would ever publish the Avengers or FF in the 616 again.

from the memos greenberg discusses on how to resolve ben/peter, it didn't seem like onslaught or hereos reborn were an option

[boots]

I think the biggest problem with the Clone Saga is that when it was bad, it was REALLY bad. Maximum Clonage is probably the worst Spider-Man story of all time and the Scarlet Spider titles go under the radar as one of the most pointless pieces of nonsense ever published under the Spider-Man banner.

i've posted this here before, but if you haven't already read it, this JMD blogpost is a great read

[boots]

But...woof, I don't envy anyone who had to read it monthly. It's basically "BEYOND" on steroids: weekly issues by shifting writers and artists, detours, a glacial pace with Claremontian walls of narration for a year and a half?

at the time, i don't think it bothered me? i was just collecting all the spidey titles as they were anyway, and having them all suddenly form a cohesive story actually made me more invested.

i think at that age i also thought it was normal. the x-titles were pulling that kinda thing a lot too.

also iirc the books in their entirety weren't actually billed as an overall "clone saga" until after peter came back. i think "clone saga" is a retroactively applied blanket title to anything with ben in the 90s. or at least the clone saga as such was meant to end with ben taking on the spidey mantle. so there wasn't an impetus to read everything that we now consider part of the saga in order to get a completed arc.

[Kurt Busiek]

a time loop solution was the forerunner for some time until busiek threw in his 2 cents saying that the story had to be a spidey story in order to work.

I think my suggestion was a time-loop, too -- but it was a science-fiction time-loop story involving Doc Ock, not a mystical/cosmic time-loop story.

It wasn't very good, either. But I'd been asked for thoughts, so I gave them some. While I should have been writing other stuff.

kdb

[boots]

I think my suggestion was a time-loop, too -- but it was a science-fiction time-loop story involving Doc Ock, not a mystical/cosmic time-loop story.

It wasn't very good, either. But I'd been asked for thoughts, so I gave them some. While I should have been writing other stuff.

kdb

cheers for the correction/context

rereading the column here, i conflated "mephisto/scrier/traveller" with "time loop". but i'm glad i did, since you've given us a little more insight into the possibilities at the time. it's all fascinating bts stuff.

the smokestack skeleton is one that's stuck in mind since reading it in the books but also finding out that it was your suggestion in the life of reilly series. greenberg says it was mostly an offer on your part for the team to play with...even so, do you recall if you ever day dreamed a personal theory around the idea?