Clone Saga discussion

[Xwho]

No.

That said, he did end up carrying multiple monthly titles for about a year, which is a rare trait in comics.

If Ben had become spider man in ASM 400,as it was intended, would have marvel had later changed him back to Scarlet Spider because he was popular and give him his own series?

[Rabidrage]

I was 12 in 1994, and that's when I started collecting comics in earnest instead of picking up random comics on road trips, so the Spider-Man Clone Saga was the first story I followed to completion. The shiny cover of "Power and Responsibility: Part 1" and the whole "Spider-Man versus Peter Parker" bit made me curious. Now, I didn't exactly know how comics were supposed to work, so the fact that the saga just went on and on and on was exciting to me. I was kind of adrift with comics when it was over.

The draw of it, for me, was obviously Spider-Man--but also, the parts of the whole thing that were of exceeding quality and the parts that were exceedingly cheap. Yes, you could have it both ways.

The writing, as I look back now, was actually top-notch for its time, as well as distinct from any other comics in a way that engages me. This is where the quality part comes in. The vocabulary is great, the introspection of the characters and their overall development is wonderful, and the action is cool too. Peter's path back from the edge in the beginning, only to lose May and find out he's the clone, is one hell of a ride. Ben's journey to become the Scarlet Spider and then Spider-Man, and his acceptance of who/what he is and later becomes is fun. Kaine's brooding, dark nature is absorbing in a way that the more modern take on him as the Scarlet Spider just doesn't bother with. Maybe the plot had too many twists and turns and complications, but with the place the whole thing has in my heart, I will never feel that way. The writing itself dealt with all of it deftly and eloquently.

The cheap part is the part where Marvel's marketing department got involved. It's the part where crossovers and tie-ins and cameos were abundant. I ate it up like a sheep, I loved it. And, truth to tell, it's so much fun that, as a writer myself, I often want my own stories to tie in, and I'd love to collaborate with other authors to recapture the magic. I love complex webs of continuity. I love it when it's not planned to the Nth degree, so that when two characters meet up, whatever's currently going on in their lives has an impact on the crossover, and its outcome is impactful later.

To that end, I have often revisited the saga to try to make heads or tails of the chronology in as complete a manner as possible. This includes all crossovers, tie-ins, cameos and anything else pertinent to it. I even count inter-company crossovers as loosely canon for the purpose of, well, just extending the story. That means that Marvel vs. DC and a lot of the Ultraverse comics are included, though I haven't quite managed to reconcile how Ben recognized Prime yet. But I include the entire run of Daredevil, Venom, New Warriors, Green Goblin, and Silver Sable as an inextricable part of the saga.

My latest attempt to organize it comes in the form of literally paying attention to the passage of days and nights. "Back from the Edge" and "The Exile Returns" are concurrent Peter and Ben stories. The writers obviously coordinated, and go as far as to feature a rainstorm in both, but also a cameo of Ben in the Peter story. There's also a DD cameo before he features in the second half of "Back from the Edge". If you look at DD comics from the same span, you'll see that DD also has some action on a rainy night, during an adventure that he'd have to finish before he teamed up with Spidey. In some ways they were thinking, in others, not so much. Some stories are tougher to slot in than others.

Lois Lane even makes an appearance in a Daredevil comic around the time Marvel vs. DC came out. Crazy! But a ton of fun to analyze.

[boots]

I was 12 in 1994, and that's when I started collecting comics in earnest instead of picking up random comics on road trips, so the Spider-Man Clone Saga was the first story I followed to completion. The shiny cover of "Power and Responsibility: Part 1" and the whole "Spider-Man versus Peter Parker" bit made me curious. Now, I didn't exactly know how comics were supposed to work, so the fact that the saga just went on and on and on was exciting to me. I was kind of adrift with comics when it was over.

The draw of it, for me, was obviously Spider-Man--but also, the parts of the whole thing that were of exceeding quality and the parts that were exceedingly cheap. Yes, you could have it both ways.

The writing, as I look back now, was actually top-notch for its time, as well as distinct from any other comics in a way that engages me. This is where the quality part comes in. The vocabulary is great, the introspection of the characters and their overall development is wonderful, and the action is cool too. Peter's path back from the edge in the beginning, only to lose May and find out he's the clone, is one hell of a ride. Ben's journey to become the Scarlet Spider and then Spider-Man, and his acceptance of who/what he is and later becomes is fun. Kaine's brooding, dark nature is absorbing in a way that the more modern take on him as the Scarlet Spider just doesn't bother with. Maybe the plot had too many twists and turns and complications, but with the place the whole thing has in my heart, I will never feel that way. The writing itself dealt with all of it deftly and eloquently.

The cheap part is the part where Marvel's marketing department got involved. It's the part where crossovers and tie-ins and cameos were abundant. I ate it up like a sheep, I loved it. And, truth to tell, it's so much fun that, as a writer myself, I often want my own stories to tie in, and I'd love to collaborate with other authors to recapture the magic. I love complex webs of continuity. I love it when it's not planned to the Nth degree, so that when two characters meet up, whatever's currently going on in their lives has an impact on the crossover, and its outcome is impactful later.

To that end, I have often revisited the saga to try to make heads or tails of the chronology in as complete a manner as possible. This includes all crossovers, tie-ins, cameos and anything else pertinent to it. I even count inter-company crossovers as loosely canon for the purpose of, well, just extending the story. That means that Marvel vs. DC and a lot of the Ultraverse comics are included, though I haven't quite managed to reconcile how Ben recognized Prime yet. But I include the entire run of Daredevil, Venom, New Warriors, Green Goblin, and Silver Sable as an inextricable part of the saga.

My latest attempt to organize it comes in the form of literally paying attention to the passage of days and nights. "Back from the Edge" and "The Exile Returns" are concurrent Peter and Ben stories. The writers obviously coordinated, and go as far as to feature a rainstorm in both, but also a cameo of Ben in the Peter story. There's also a DD cameo before he features in the second half of "Back from the Edge". If you look at DD comics from the same span, you'll see that DD also has some action on a rainy night, during an adventure that he'd have to finish before he teamed up with Spidey. In some ways they were thinking, in others, not so much. Some stories are tougher to slot in than others.

Lois Lane even makes an appearance in a Daredevil comic around the time Marvel vs. DC came out. Crazy! But a ton of fun to analyze.

nicely thought out post, thank you. my journey with the clone saga was pretty similar with a lot of the same feelings, though personally i didn't have access or cash to buy the whole lot as a kid (even as an adult i still haven't read the complete saga). i found it engrossing and thrilling on a new level. i also feel like kaine as a character was built to serve best in that atmosphere too.

as a writer, you might be interested in this interview Howard Mackie + Terry Kavanagh. they go into how coordinated (and uh...uncoordinated) the collaboration could be.

personally, i prefer not to see all of ben's appearances as part of the overall saga even though i know that's the tendency (i cut it off when ben "resumes" the mantle of spider-man) but i do like the way you paint it as a cohesive whole. strikes me as something you can only really do with the comic book medium, which is cool.

[Xwho]

nicely thought out post, thank you. my journey with the clone saga was pretty similar with a lot of the same feelings, though personally i didn't have access or cash to buy the whole lot as a kid (even as an adult i still haven't read the complete saga). i found it engrossing and thrilling on a new level. i also feel like kaine as a character was built to serve best in that atmosphere too.

as a writer, you might be interested in this interview Howard Mackie + Terry Kavanagh. they go into how coordinated (and uh...uncoordinated) the collaboration could be.

personally, i prefer not to see all of ben's appearances as part of the overall saga even though i know that's the tendency (i cut it off when ben "resumes" the mantle of spider-man) but i do like the way you paint it as a cohesive whole. strikes me as something you can only really do with the comic book medium, which is cool.

Do you know how the sales were for 2009-2010 clone saga mini and what were they?

[boots]

Do you know how the sales were for 2009-2010 clone saga mini and what were they?

no idea. not well enough to warrant more ben reilly stories, which was part of what defalco was hoping for:

TD: I don’t want to ruin things, but one of my goals on this series is that this thing will sell so well that Marvel will be forced to give Ben Reilly a monthly comic book! That’s my goal. How is that possible? Is that possible? Hey, we saw 12 years of Spider-Girl! I think we can see 24 years of Ben Reilly!

Defalco interview on "The Clone Saga" mini

on one of your older questions about the original plans for ben, here's a quote from JMD

The Clone Saga went on for quite a while after my departure, and—for reasons that were beyond the control of the writers and artists working on the books—the story seemed to change direction every few months. I was disappointed by the ending that finally saw print, but, of course, I’m biased: I still think our original ending should have been the ending: Ben becomes Spider-Man. Peter, MJ and the baby go off together. One of the important points we were trying to make was that wearing tights and punching people isn't the only way—or the best way—to prove that "with great power comes great responsibility." Raising a child with intelligence, compassion and love is the perhaps the greatest responsibility there is. I'm sorry we lost that. It would have been a powerful statement to come from the flagship character of the Marvel Universe. "Yes, folks, super hero adventures are great fun...but, in the real world, it's compassion and human decency that counts."

JMD blog post "Cloning around"

[Xwho]

no idea. not well enough to warrant more ben reilly stories, which was part of what defalco was hoping for:

TD: I don’t want to ruin things, but one of my goals on this series is that this thing will sell so well that Marvel will be forced to give Ben Reilly a monthly comic book! That’s my goal. How is that possible? Is that possible? Hey, we saw 12 years of Spider-Girl! I think we can see 24 years of Ben Reilly!

Defalco interview on "The Clone Saga" mini

on one of your older questions about the original plans for ben, here's a quote from JMD

The Clone Saga went on for quite a while after my departure, and—for reasons that were beyond the control of the writers and artists working on the books—the story seemed to change direction every few months. I was disappointed by the ending that finally saw print, but, of course, I’m biased: I still think our original ending should have been the ending: Ben becomes Spider-Man. Peter, MJ and the baby go off together. One of the important points we were trying to make was that wearing tights and punching people isn't the only way—or the best way—to prove that "with great power comes great responsibility." Raising a child with intelligence, compassion and love is the perhaps the greatest responsibility there is. I'm sorry we lost that. It would have been a powerful statement to come from the flagship character of the Marvel Universe. "Yes, folks, super hero adventures are great fun...but, in the real world, it's compassion and human decency that counts."

JMD blog post "Cloning around"

Do you know if the sales were bad?

[boots]

Do you know if the sales were bad?

we discussed that previously here

[Xwho]

we discussed that previously here

I meant if the sales of the clone saga mini series from 2009-2010 were bad.

[boots]

I meant if the sales of the clone saga mini series from 2009-2010 were bad.

i replied to that above, mate.

[Xwho]

i replied to that above, mate.

Maybe the really reason there was not a Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider comic spinoff out of the mini series was because they decided to do a Kaine Scarlet Spider comic.

What do you think?

[Matt Rat]

Maybe the really reason there was not a Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider comic spinoff out of the mini series was because they decided to do a Kaine Scarlet Spider comic.

Ben was supposed to return earlier than he did, plans fell through for it even though there was pretty obvious set up at the time.

[JustLuke]

Ben was supposed to return earlier than he did, plans fell through for it even though there was pretty obvious set up at the time.

He was supposed to return in Spider-Island right? Ngl part of me wishes that happened but then we might not have gotten Christopher Yost's Scarlet Spider run with Kaine...

[boots]

He was supposed to return in Spider-Island right? Ngl part of me wishes that happened but then we might not have gotten Christopher Yost's Scarlet Spider run with Kaine...

apparently someone else had dibs on ben for another project that never came to life. ben's publication history seems to be filled with a lot of "almost was".

[Matt Rat]

He was supposed to return in Spider-Island right? Ngl part of me wishes that happened but then we might not have gotten Christopher Yost's Scarlet Spider run with Kaine...

Yeah, I think that's what happened. Kaine felt like a better fit.

I wonder how much of Kaine's development was intended for Ben? I think if Slott was going to bring him back, then obviously the dark direction Marvel have been setting out for Ben constantly might have always been in the cards and Yost's Scarlet Spider would have simply been no different.

apparently someone else had dibs on ben for another project that never came to life. ben's publication history seems to be filled with a lot of "almost was".

Was it the same person who wrote the Ben/X-Men crossover books?

[Huntsman Spider]

Yeah, I think that's what happened. Kaine felt like a better fit.

I wonder how much of Kaine's development was intended for Ben? I think if Slott was going to bring him back, then obviously the dark direction Marvel have been setting out for Ben constantly might have always been in the cards and Yost's Scarlet Spider would have simply been no different.



Was it the same person who wrote the Ben/X-Men crossover books?

Christos Gage? Yeah, that was actually an overall X-Men/Spider-Man crossover miniseries exploring how their alliance and camaraderie developed over the years/decades they were both in published existence. First issue was in the 1970s with the original five X-Men and a college-aged Spider-Man, second issue was in the 1980s after Kraven's Last Hunt and The Mutant Massacre, third issue was in the 1990s with Ben Reilly as Spider-Man, and fourth and last issue was in the 2000s, the present or recent past at the time. The four issues had a unifying plot of Mister Sinister acquiring DNA from the original five X-Men via Kraven, then taking Kraven's DNA before or after his death in Kraven's Last Hunt, and finally merging all of that together with a sample of the Carnage symbiote's biomass acquired in the third issue to create a living weapon he called Xraven, with the combined powers of the original five X-Men, Kraven, and the Carnage symbiote. Fun times.