Clone Saga discussion

[Xwho]

I think my suggestion was a time-loop, too -- but it was a science-fiction time-loop story involving Doc Ock, not a mystical/cosmic time-loop story.

It wasn't very good, either. But I'd been asked for thoughts, so I gave them some. While I should have been writing other stuff.

kdb

When you wrote legacy of evil did ever know Norman was coming back and how did A.I that was later in Nick Spencer run have a copy of Norman's mind as well as Harry's

[JTait]

i've posted this here before, but if you haven't already read it, this JMD blogpost is a great read

That was a great read, thank you. It was really interesting to learn that the early part of the Clone Saga was the most fun that JMD has ever had writing comics. I'm not sure that it totally shows in the stories, which is a bit of a shame. I think in hindsight the constant multi-title crossovers placed a massive burden on the creators.

[Rabidrage]

I like your thought process here.

I don't know if any Spider-Man discussions ever involved Onslaught. It's a really cool story idea but I think it would have been vetoed for financial reasons. Marvel wouldn't want to split the Spider-Man readership down the middle and farm half the interest in their most popular character out to Jim Lee or Rob Liefeld.

HEROES REBORN was an act of desperation, and no one knew if Marvel would ever publish the Avengers or FF in the 616 again.

That's true, though they did pull it off with "Back from the Edge"/"The Exile Returns" and "Web of Life"/"Web of Death", though I think people knew it was temporary. Of course, you also have Spider-Man 2099's run in the past. And Kaine's concurrent run as Scarlet Spider.

The other consideration is that Ben might not have had an ongoing title if he stayed in the Reborn universe. There's a Bucky still there, isn't there?

Either way, it would have been as much of a trip as Banner becoming another Hulk there.

[HypnoHustler]

I think my suggestion was a time-loop, too -- but it was a science-fiction time-loop story involving Doc Ock, not a mystical/cosmic time-loop story.

It wasn't very good, either. But I'd been asked for thoughts, so I gave them some. While I should have been writing other stuff.

kdb

What a crazy time that must’ve been when they were soliciting ideas from writers working on completely unrelated books/projects. And thanks for giving us a peek behind the curtain. I loved what you were doing with ‘Untold Tales’ around the same time this was happening btw.

[Kurt Busiek]

the smokestack skeleton is one that's stuck in mind since reading it in the books but also finding out that it was your suggestion in the life of reilly series. greenberg says it was mostly an offer on your part for the team to play with...even so, do you recall if you ever day dreamed a personal theory around the idea?

My only particular thought was to throw a wrinkle into things -- to show that the "original" clone, the one Peter dumped down the incinerator smokestack, was actually dead -- so who's this other one?

But like you say, it was just a suggestion.

Secrets behind the comics revealed: I own the original art to that cover -- Dan Jurgens was so pleased with the idea that he sent me the art as a thank you.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

When you wrote legacy of evil did ever know Norman was coming back

I don't think so? I can't remember at this late date.

EDITED TO ADD: Based on when LEGACY came out, I don't think anyone knew Norman was coming back when I wrote it.

and how did A.I that was later in Nick Spencer run have a copy of Norman's mind as well as Harry's

I never even read that story, and had no creative role in it. I guess you'd have to ask Nick.

kdb

[boots]

My only particular thought was to throw a wrinkle into things -- to show that the "original" clone, the one Peter dumped down the incinerator smokestack, was actually dead -- so who's this other one?

But like you say, it was just a suggestion.

Secrets behind the comics revealed: I own the original art to that cover -- Dan Jurgens was so pleased with the idea that he sent me the art as a thank you.

kdb

thanks for the extra trivia. and i can see why jurgens loved it; it's been bouncing around in my head from the 90s until now. i don't even need to look through my collection to instantly recall the cover you're referencing. it was impactful.

[Kurt Busiek]

What a crazy time that must’ve been when they were soliciting ideas from writers working on completely unrelated books/projects.

UNTOLD TALES wasn't one of the present-day Spidey books, but it was still a Spidey book, so it's not completely unrelated.

And before Bob invited me to make suggestions, I'd thrown out the skull in the smokestack thought that got adopted, so I think Bob was thinking, "Hey, he had a good idea before, and he's doing a Spidey book that's getting good reviews, what could it hurt?"

It's also possible that because of the critical success of UNTOLD TALES, Bob could have been thinking, "If Busiek has a great idea, maybe I can slot him in to the mix the next time we need a writer." But whether he did or not, he got fired and the books got turned over to Ralph, so what he might have been thinking for the future didn't matter any longer.

And thanks for giving us a peek behind the curtain. I loved what you were doing with ‘Untold Tales’ around the same time this was happening btw.

Thanks.

kdb

[Xwho]

I don't think so? I can't remember at this late date.

EDITED TO ADD: Based on when LEGACY came out, I don't think anyone knew Norman was coming back when I wrote it.



I never even read that story, and had no creative role in it. I guess you'd have to ask Nick.

kdb

The computer Norman/Harry first showed up in Legacy of evil.

Did you intend for the computer Norman/Harry to be copy's of their mind's and do you know how I would be able to ask Nick?

[Kurt Busiek]

The computer Norman/Harry first showed up in Legacy of evil.

And that's the last time I saw it, too.

Did you intend for the computer Norman/Harry to be copy's of their mind's and do you know how I would be able to ask Nick?

I just intended whatever we said in the story -- I haven't read it since then, either, so I don't recall what we said.

And no idea how you can contact Nick, sorry.

kdb

[boots]

I loved what you were doing with ‘Untold Tales’ around the same time this was happening btw.

untold tales was the only title i was still reading after revelations back then. mostly because of the quality of the story telling but partly because in my contrarian head canon/90s copium: it was still the only ben reilly/peter title being published at the time.

[HypnoHustler]

Hi Kurt, I know you’re busy but I’m just wondering what was your impression of the clone saga and Ben at the time. Peter David said he never thought it’d last, while other writers did their best to make the new status quo stick. I know you didn’t write Ben, but what was your feeling? Did you think it was doomed from pretty early on as well?

[Rabidrage]

My only particular thought was to throw a wrinkle into things -- to show that the "original" clone, the one Peter dumped down the incinerator smokestack, was actually dead -- so who's this other one?

But like you say, it was just a suggestion.

Secrets behind the comics revealed: I own the original art to that cover -- Dan Jurgens was so pleased with the idea that he sent me the art as a thank you.

kdb

Kurt, since you're a window to that time in the industry...

How much coordination was there between titles between comic families? Spidey had his own little cadre of books under his banner that, for a time, included Venom, Green Goblin and New Warriors. But I noticed that Daredevil was also very closely connected to the Spiderverse for the whole Clone Saga run. He teamed up with Spidey, had a couple cameos, had multiple dealings with Ben Urich, and his partner dated Liz Osborn (and appeared in Revelations). There were also concurrent events that overlapped:

1. The Double Edge Alpha/Omega story and Maximum Clonage, where Punisher appeared in both.

2. Doom 2099's trip to the past, where not only was DD involved, but Doom was in Four Freedoms Plaza overlapping the story that would bring Onslaught to their doorstep.

3. The whole Ultraverse thing, on which no one seems to have been consulted on at all! I know that it's retroactively considered to be an alternate Marvel Earth, but I like trying to fit the stories in as part of continuity, so it would be nice to know.

[Kurt Busiek]

Hi Kurt, I know you’re busy but I’m just wondering what was your impression of the clone saga and Ben at the time. Peter David said he never thought it’d last, while other writers did their best to make the new status quo stick. I know you didn’t write Ben, but what was your feeling? Did you think it was doomed from pretty early on as well?

I didn't care for it.

I thought that too many of the creators and editors involved didn't have a problem with telling the readers that the Spider-Man they'd been reading about since issue 150 (or whichever) was a fake, because to them, it was the pre-150 Spider-Man that "mattered." But readers who started reading Marvel comics after 150 were generally unhappy to be told that the adventures they read happened to a guy who wasn't the "real" Peter, and was going to be replaced. It just felt like a big mess to me, and one where there just wasn't a way to make it work.

So I was glad to be writing UNTOLD TALES, because whether you liked Ben or whether you wanted the modern-day Peter to be the "real" Peter, that's the guy I was writing about.

kdb

[boots]

I didn't care for it.

So I was glad to be writing UNTOLD TALES, because whether you liked Ben or whether you wanted the modern-day Peter to be the "real" Peter, that's the guy I was writing about.

kdb

this is kinda what my tongue-in-cheek comment was getting at: untold tales was a book fans of either ben or peter or both could get behind seeing as it was both character's history, which i very much did at the time.

totally understand your feelings on the concept of ben reilly and outside of the mainline spidey title creators, i can believe that would've been the professional consensus at the time.

out of curiosity...did you read any of the reilly books?