Clone Saga discussion

[boots]

I only have a few spider-Girl issues and trades. Part of me kept an eye on that universe, hoping they would bring Ben back there, but once it became obvious they wouldn’t do that either, I stopped bothering with the run.

Instead of it feeling as a Love letter to the clone saga fans, the series felt like one long Dear John letter.

not that different to how i felt about it at the time though that was more an emotional response. i do think defalco probably leaned enough into the legacy of the saga with darkdevil, kaine etc

i might have liked to have seen more ben flashbacks or peter talking to may about her uncle ben, in the way we would we get with peter's uncle ben, in order to have him loom large as a figure in her life to live up to.

[Kurt Busiek]

There was a whole fad of "replacement' versions of characters in the '90s (Thunderstrike, Artemis, AzBats, USAgent, etc., etc.) - did any of them really grab you in any particular way? Anyone you thought might have stuck around or grown a fandom more than they did?

I thought USAgent was a pretty distinctive and interesting character, and tried to give him his own particular "platform" a couple of times -- once as the leader of the Jury, in a THUNDERBOLTS arc, and then in MAXIMUM SECURITY, we made him the lead agent for S.T.A.R.S., essentially becoming a superpowered Tommy Lee Jones from THE FUGITIVE, taking down superpowered bail-jumpers and the like.

I thought he could have been popular in a series designed for him, but apparently not -- or at least not this particular setups.

kdb

[Huntsman Spider]

I think it handled Ben VERY well. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind seeing a comic continuation based on that version of Ben; be it a One-shot or mini. I think it handled all the jumble that was what got crazy with the Clone saga very well.

That would be cool. In retrospect, it was kind of morbidly hilarious that a version of the Clone Saga ultimately snowballed into all of reality being threatened/destroyed. Shame about Ben not being able to accompany main-series Peter when he reconfronted Spider-Carnage in the armored multibillionaire Spider-Man's reality, though. Would have been good for a semblance of closure.

Spider-Girl did a re-tread of the "who's the original?" plot. Which had an interesting resolution. They were never able to be SURE, but they eventually decided that the one whose DNA got rewritten was probably the clone.

Funny you should mention that... that was the point I got POed with Spider-Girl... when they decided to kill off April with a time-travel BS plot.

I liked it. Loved seeing the various alternate Petes. All of them were interesting, but the one I REALLY wanted to see more of was the one where he's a rich guy... hmm..... what effect has that had on the rest of the MU?

That universe's armored multibillionaire Spider-Man could have been very interesting to explore more. He had a public identity. He was beloved instead of feared, distrusted, and hated. J. Jonah Jameson was his godfather. Wilson Fisk was his lawyer (even though he turned out to be the same corrupt, power-hungry snake as elsewhere in the Multiverse, allying with Spider-Carnage in the belief they were going to hijack Peter Parker's identity and resources and take over the world). Most importantly, Uncle Ben was still alive enough to talk some sense into Spider-Carnage and make him realize what he'd become and what he had to do to set things right. How all that would impact the rest of the 'verse around him would be very compelling to see. Would he have been rivals or friends (or friendly rivals) with Tony Stark, the "other" armored multibillionaire superhero Iron Man? Would it be more believable in that universe that Tony would have sought him out or vice versa for mentorship? Would Matt Murdock/Daredevil be his new personal attorney after Fisk was exposed as a treacherous snake in the grass? I could go on . . .

not that different to how i felt about it at the time though that was more an emotional response. i do think defalco probably leaned enough into the legacy of the saga with darkdevil, kaine etc

i might have liked to have seen more ben flashbacks or peter talking to may about her uncle ben, in the way we would we get with peter's uncle ben, in order to have him loom large as a figure in her life to live up to.

Speaking of Darkdevil, I'd have liked to see him reveal himself to Mayday and her parents (plus April) as Ben Reilly's son. Would have been interesting to see their reactions, especially since he'd basically be Mayday's brother, at least genetically speaking.

[HypnoHustler]

I thought USAgent was a pretty distinctive and interesting character, and tried to give him his own particular "platform" a couple of times -- once as the leader of the Jury, in a THUNDERBOLTS arc, and then in MAXIMUM SECURITY, we made him the lead agent for S.T.A.R.S., essentially becoming a superpowered Tommy Lee Jones from THE FUGITIVE, taking down superpowered bail-jumpers and the like.

I thought he could have been popular in a series designed for him, but apparently not -- or at least not this particular setups.

kdb

I always perceived USAgent as some (sorry to get semi-political) quasi-fascist arch-conservative, like the type who relished going into war zones just so he could snap some foreign necks. But almost the opposite of what Cap represented. Then again, I haven’t read much of him since the 90s… but I thought he was at his most interesting when writers played into those dark aspects more.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Yeah, US Agent is in spirit more of a villain than a hero. He was kinda Evil Steve Rogers. Not really the same as Ben Reilly in the 90s. Azrael maybe...

[Huntsman Spider]

I always perceived USAgent as some (sorry to get semi-political) quasi-fascist arch-conservative, like the type who relished going into war zones just so he could snap some foreign necks. But almost the opposite of what Cap represented. Then again, I haven’t read much of him since the 90s… but I thought he was at his most interesting when writers played into those dark aspects more.

Yeah, US Agent is in spirit more of a villain than a hero. He was kinda Evil Steve Rogers. Not really the same as Ben Reilly in the 90s. Azrael maybe...

Technically, in both Batman's and Captain America's cases, Azrael and "Super-Patriot" --- John Walker's initial costumed alias before becoming Captain America and then U.S. Agent --- were supposed to be the writers at DC and Marvel rebuking fans and/or readers who had the wrong idea of what Bats and Cap were or should be, by giving them versions of those heroes that played up those notions, just to demonstrate why it would be a bad thing for Batman to be a murderous vigilante and for Captain America to be an unquestioning propaganda tool (if not an outright weapon) for the U.S. government. In TV Tropes parlance, they would be considered "Anti-Hero Substitutes," which Ben Reilly in the 90s technically inverted, as he was set up initially to appear even more heroic in comparison to how Peter had been slipping deeper into angst and rage and self-destruction due to events shortly before the Clone Saga started.

[HypnoHustler]

Technically, in both Batman's and Captain America's cases, Azrael and "Super-Patriot" --- John Walker's initial costumed alias before becoming Captain America and then U.S. Agent --- were supposed to be the writers at DC and Marvel rebuking fans and/or readers who had the wrong idea of what Bats and Cap were or should be, by giving them versions of those heroes that played up those notions, just to demonstrate why it would be a bad thing for Batman to be a murderous vigilante and for Captain America to be an unquestioning propaganda tool (if not an outright weapon) for the U.S. government. In TV Tropes parlance, they would be considered "Anti-Hero Substitutes," which Ben Reilly in the 90s technically inverted, as he was set up initially to appear even more heroic in comparison to how Peter had been slipping deeper into angst and rage and self-destruction due to events shortly before the Clone Saga started.

That’s super interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Huntsman.

[Huntsman Spider]

That’s super interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Huntsman.

You're very welcome.

[Xwho]

I think I answered this earlier, didn't I?



Even if they'd ended it sooner, I don't think it would have worked.

kdb

I could have preferred that everything was done to make it stick, and then we may for sure what could have happened.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Technically, in both Batman's and Captain America's cases, Azrael and "Super-Patriot" --- John Walker's initial costumed alias before becoming Captain America and then U.S. Agent --- were supposed to be the writers at DC and Marvel rebuking fans and/or readers who had the wrong idea of what Bats and Cap were or should be, by giving them versions of those heroes that played up those notions, just to demonstrate why it would be a bad thing for Batman to be a murderous vigilante and for Captain America to be an unquestioning propaganda tool (if not an outright weapon) for the U.S. government. In TV Tropes parlance, they would be considered "Anti-Hero Substitutes," which Ben Reilly in the 90s technically inverted, as he was set up initially to appear even more heroic in comparison to how Peter had been slipping deeper into angst and rage and self-destruction due to events shortly before the Clone Saga started.

Yeah, I wouldn't group Ben Reilly with those other characters, for the reasons you mentioned. Also, unlike Azrael and US Agent, Ben Reilly was intended (at least by some people at Marvel) to be a permanent replacement. He is closer to Azrael in hindsight because that idea didn't take off.

[Xwho]

Yeah, I wouldn't group Ben Reilly with those other characters, for the reasons you mentioned. Also, unlike Azrael and US Agent, Ben Reilly was intended (at least by some people at Marvel) to be a permanent replacement. He is closer to Azrael in hindsight because that idea didn't take off.

Was Azrael ever considered to permanently replace Bruce?

[HypnoHustler]

Was Azrael ever considered to permanently replace Bruce?

No. Unlike Ben Reilly, Wally West or Kyle Raynor (sp?), Azrael wasn’t intended to permanently replace Bruce. He was always meant to eventually come back. Like another poster said, Azrael was meant to show the fans a “be careful what you wish for” scenario as many were all about grim n’ gritty back then. So Bruce coming back was always going to be both a huge sales event and relief for longtime fans who missed what the real Batman represented.

[Vegeta]

Was Azrael ever considered to permanently replace Bruce?

I don't think so, like Huntsman Spider mentioned it was (Denny O'Neil I think?) the idea of "be careful what you wish for" when fans wanted a more brutal Batman to replace Bruce just to show how wrong that line of thinking was for the character. Slott tried the same idea with Superior Spider-man, having Doc Ock take over Peter's body and becoming a more violent and authoritative (using Spider bots to patrol the city, etc) and thus more efficient Spider-man. The idea being that Peter's methods would be proven better because he wasn't violating people's privacy, etc. But the execution was muddled and several readers walked away thinking Doc Ock was indeed the better hero.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't think so, like Huntsman Spider mentioned it was (Denny O'Neil I think?) the idea of "be careful what you wish for" when fans wanted a more brutal Batman to replace Bruce just to show how wrong that line of thinking was for the character. Slott tried the same idea with Superior Spider-man, having Doc Ock take over Peter's body and becoming a more violent and authoritative (using Spider bots to patrol the city, etc) and thus more efficient Spider-man. The idea being that Peter's methods would be proven better because he wasn't violating people's privacy, etc. But the execution was muddled and several readers walked away thinking Doc Ock was indeed the better hero.

Or thinking that was what Slott was saying (or trying to say), despite backpedaling on that in the finale to bring back Peter.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Was Azrael ever considered to permanently replace Bruce?

To my knowledge, no.