The New Golden Age: Discussion Thread

[D.Z]

Huntress is only moved up to make her fit in with Bruce's timeline. The merged Earth does have Earth 2 in it.

[Lee Stone]

Yup. While certain fans may love concrete dates and timelines, these same fans will absolutely loathe them three years from now and decry why the date from three years earlier is no longer accurate. lol

Meanwhile... Batman dies in 18 years, but...
He's died before, and there will likely be three more Crisis events between now and then to prevent that death or just erase Helena, the JSA and this story.

[MajorHoy]

Yes! Grundy as a member of the future JSA. Love it!

Did it actually say he was a member of the JSA?

He's working with Helena. Remember, he use to work with Jade / Infinity Inc.

I don't know if it's a case where he's an actual official JSA member in the future, nor do I know if any / all of it may get undone (or shifted to an "alternate future") after the Per Degaton story is wrapped up.

[Lee Stone]

Did it actually say he was a member of the JSA?

He's working with Helena. Remember, he use to work with Jade / Infinity Inc.

I don't know if it's a case where he's an actual official JSA member in the future, nor do I know if any / all of it may get undone (or shifted to an "alternate future") after the Per Degaton story is wrapped up.

Some clues we know...

Helena called him a teammate.
They're looking for Dr. Fate.
Grundy mentions JSA.

My guess is that they are in a team, yes.
But Grundy mentioning JSA leads me to think that they are looking for the JSA.
So they may be Infinity Inc. Or they could be the future JSI, and looking for the original JSA.

[CaptCleghorn]

Some clues we know...

Helena called him a teammate.
They're looking for Dr. Fate.
Grundy mentions JSA.

My guess is that they are in a team, yes.
But Grundy mentioning JSA leads me to think that they are looking for the JSA.
So they may be Infinity Inc. Or they could be the future JSI, and looking for the original JSA.

If Robinson's idea of Grundy having him with each iteration having a different personality, I could see him as a future JSA member. I haven't read the issue yet, so I could be talking out of my @$$ here.

[Lee Stone]

I also like how Helena's flashbacks uses scenes from Batman: Year One, but they're still so generic that they could be from any 'origin' of Batman or Catwoman.

[Lee Stone]

Wow!

Loads to unpack here.

spoilers:

I definitely did not expect a breakdown of Batman's timeline that more or less gives us his exact age in current continuity. The Wayne murders happened 31 years ago, and Selina became Catwoman (in a panel straight out of Year One) 13 years ago. That would make Bruce around 39 now (the 18 year gap between the murders and Bruce becoming Batman is from Year One and Bruce was 25, possibly turning 26, in that story, so I'm going with him being 8 at the time of the murders). Dunno how Damian's age makes sense with Bruce being 39 and becoming Batman at 25-26...guess there is some rapid ageing involved there after all Anyway, it seems that they're keeping the Earth Two story of Batman being killed by a random criminal (Bill Jensen most likely) empowered by a sorcerer (had to look up Frederick Vaux). It does give the vibe that this is the same Helena Wayne who, like every other DC character, has had her origins pushed forward in time and slightly altered, but fundamentally the same. I wonder if Batman, in this possible future, became a member of the JSA? He's on the cover as a JSA member (unless that's Wildcat...)

end of spoilers

Since you used Spoil tags, I'll add something I missed the first time I read it...

spoilers:

According to Helena, Selina objected to her going out in search of Bruce's killer. That means that Selina doesn't die before Bruce this time.

end of spoilers

[Mantis-Ray]

Since you used Spoil tags, I'll add something I missed the first time I read it...

spoilers:

According to Helena, Selina objected to her going out in search of Bruce's killer. That means that Selina doesn't die before Bruce this time.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Heh considering how much of a jerk Selina was to Bruce about her, I'm amused to think of how pissed Selina must be here.

end of spoilers

[Dataweaver]

Since you used Spoil tags, I'll add something I missed the first time I read it...

spoilers:

According to Helena, Selina objected to her going out in search of Bruce's killer. That means that Selina doesn't die before Bruce this time.

end of spoilers

That's not a spoiler; it was revealed at the end of The New Golden Age.

[Dataweaver]

Oh Johns, why did you have to be so specific with the dates? Lol
That’s just asking for trouble. Now Damian might be older than Batman Year One?
All they had to do was say “decades ago”, “many years ago”, “the near future”. It would take away nothing from the actual story and wouldn’t highlight how messy DC’s continuity has gotten.

The art looks great, though.
I wouldn’t mind if Johns establishes that the Trinity ended up joining the Justice Society in Huntress’s future. It would be a nice nod to their history with the team and would explain why Degaton was supposedly involved in Batman’s death.

I'm taking it as a given that the modern (floating) timeline doesn't make sense. In addition to Damian (whose age has problems even if we don't assume that Batman's career started 13 years ago), the Superman Reborn edit that inserted Jon's childhood directly into the timeline without any time travel shenanigans wreaks merry havoc on it.

[bat39]

Huntress is only moved up to make her fit in with Bruce's timeline. The merged Earth does have Earth 2 in it.

Pretty much.

Ironically, after COIE, both Superman and Batman have moved in broadly the same direction as their Earth 2 counterparts - Clark married Lois, and Bruce got involved with Selina (and in possible futures, they have Helena).

Wonder Woman in the meantime has had some of her Golden Age/Earth 2 history restored in terms of her WW2-era (and beyond) JSA membership. Dunno how Steve Trevor fits into it yet though, or if Fury is her daughter now.

I also like how Helena's flashbacks uses scenes from Batman: Year One, but they're still so generic that they could be from any 'origin' of Batman or Catwoman.

Selina's Catwoman suit is very much a Year One thing though. Don't really think I've seen that brown suit outside of YO, or any directly related story.

Also, Johns has specified an 18 year gap between the murders and Bruce's early career as Batman, which is also memorable from YO (in the New 52, it was a 15 year gap).

Since you used Spoil tags, I'll add something I missed the first time I read it...

spoilers:

According to Helena, Selina objected to her going out in search of Bruce's killer. That means that Selina doesn't die before Bruce this time.

end of spoilers

Of course she doesn't. My point is that the circumstances of Huntress' Earth 2 origin have broadly been recreated in Earth 0's future...with a few tweaks like this one.

Its kinda akin to how Superman's origin keeps getting updated but stays broadly the same - with some details changing like whether the Kents are alive or not.

I'm taking it as a given that the modern (floating) timeline doesn't make sense. In addition to Damian (whose age has problems even if we don't assume that Batman's career started 13 years ago), the Superman Reborn edit that inserted Jon's childhood directly into the timeline without any time travel shenanigans wreaks merry havoc on it.

I wonder if this 13 year timeline applies to Superman as well (who was sporting greying hair in the Authority mini). Jon is chronologically supposed to be about 11 I believe, but that would mean that everything from Clark's debut as Superman to his marriage to Lois needs to be squeezed into 2 years!

Of course, its possible that Superman has been around a few years longer than Batman.

[Dataweaver]

The problem with that is that it puts events like Doomsday in Batman's second or third year as Batman, at the latest. I seriously doubt that that's Johns' intention. Depending on how the rest of DC's timeline align, either Superman came very early (and Doomsday happened before the formation of the Justice League) or Batman came very late.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only way to make Jon's timeline make sense is to put the time travel shenanigans back in. With Doomsday Clock giving us an Earth 52, it's actually quite possible to go back to something incredibly close to what actually happened (just recast everything from Superman: Lois & Clark to Superman Reborn as having happened on Earth 52, and recast the ending of Superman Reborn as the Kents returning to Earth 0); but until something like that is done, Jon's timeline remains an impossibility in anything resembling a sane modern DCU timeline.

Though I suppose another possibility would be to shift the order of events around a little; the real problem comes from saying that events such as the Death of Superman took place before Lois and Clark got married. If we instead assume that the marriage and Jon's birth were among the first things to happen on Superman's timeline, and that he's been a family man throughout most of his career, then most of the problems go away; all that you're left with are some retconning of “wife and child” into the secret identity side of his life: in the Death of Superman, for example, Lois wouldn't be his fiancee; she'd be his wife, and Jon would likely already be in grade school. Heck, she might even be his fiancee or even his wife as far back as the founding of the original Justice League. Granted, that would knock out a bunch of Silver Age and Bronze Age stories about Lois trying to prove that Clark is Superman or Clark trying to convince Lois to date him; but frankly, that's not much of a loss. I'd happily squeeze all of those stories into the first two years of his career.

[bat39]

The problem with that is that it puts events like Doomsday in Batman's second or third year as Batman, at the latest. I seriously doubt that that's Johns' intention. Depending on how the rest of DC's timeline align, either Superman came very early (and Doomsday happened before the formation of the Justice League) or Batman came very late.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only way to make Jon's timeline make sense is to put the time travel shenanigans back in. With Doomsday Clock giving us an Earth 52, it's actually quite possible to go back to something incredibly close to what actually happened (just recast everything from Superman: Lois & Clark to Superman Reborn as having happened on Earth 52, and recast the ending of Superman Reborn as the Kents returning to Earth 0); but until something like that is done, Jon's timeline remains an impossibility in anything resembling a sane modern DCU timeline.

Though I suppose another possibility would be to shift the order of events around a little; the real problem comes from saying that events such as the Death of Superman took place before Lois and Clark got married. If we instead assume that the marriage and Jon's birth were among the first things to happen on Superman's timeline, and that he's been a family man throughout most of his career, then most of the problems go away; all that you're left with are some retconning of “wife and child” into the secret identity side of his life: in the Death of Superman, for example, Lois wouldn't be his fiancee; she'd be his wife, and Jon would likely already be in grade school. Heck, she might even be his fiancee or even his wife as far back as the founding of the original Justice League. Granted, that would knock out a bunch of Silver Age and Bronze Age stories about Lois trying to prove that Clark is Superman or Clark trying to convince Lois to date him; but frankly, that's not much of a loss. I'd happily squeeze all of those stories into the first two years of his career.

Yeah, its tricky.

When it comes to Superman alone, it all kinda works in a 15 year timeline. 3-4 years of Clark being single in which you slot in all his Golden Age/Silver Age/Bronze Age/Post-COIE 'early' adventures. Then Death and Return happens. Then the wedding, and then Jon is born.

The problem then becomes the rest of the DCU. Going by this, the Death and Return would have happened early in Batman's career, when Dick was Robin. The Justice League would have been pretty new, if it had been formed at all. And yet, somehow, the destruction of Coast City by the Cyborg-Superman is what leads Hal Jordan to become Parallax...at a time when Hal should be having his Silver Age adventures? And Connor Kent is around the time that the original Teen Titans might have been forming?

You know, I was okay with them squeezing Jon into the timeline 'naturally' post-Reborn. But now that they've involved him in timey-wimey shenanigans and aged him up 'unnaturally' anyway, I can't help but feel maybe they should have done something akin to your suggestion.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah, its tricky.

When it comes to Superman alone, it all kinda works in a 15 year timeline. 3-4 years of Clark being single in which you slot in all his Golden Age/Silver Age/Bronze Age/Post-COIE 'early' adventures. Then Death and Return happens. Then the wedding, and then Jon is born.

The problem then becomes the rest of the DCU. Going by this, the Death and Return would have happened early in Batman's career, when Dick was Robin. The Justice League would have been pretty new, if it had been formed at all. And yet, somehow, the destruction of Coast City by the Cyborg-Superman is what leads Hal Jordan to become Parallax...at a time when Hal should be having his Silver Age adventures? And Connor Kent is around the time that the original Teen Titans might have been forming?

You know, I was okay with them squeezing Jon into the timeline 'naturally' post-Reborn. But now that they've involved him in timey-wimey shenanigans and aged him up 'unnaturally' anyway, I can't help but feel maybe they should have done something akin to your suggestion.

Take another look at my final paragraph. I actually made two suggestions, which are mutually exclusive. The more I think about it, the more I like the latter. But it does have its own issues.

[Dataweaver]

As to Damian's age: it was pointed out that Morrison retconned his conception to a Bronze Age adventure (Takes off the Demon, I think?) that took place while Dick was still Robin — and in college. That makes Damian's age a bit more workable; but still awkward. Really, the main difficulty comes from the fact that Dick was 10 and Tim was 3 when Dick became Robin, and that Tim was 13 when he became Robin: that puts ten years from Dick to Tim, another three to six years for Tim's time as Robin, and maybe another year for Damian's times as Robin (assuming that DCU Rebirth retconned his age instead of stealth-adding another three years of adventures to his life). Push Batman Year One back four years or so, and it becomes just possible to make everything fit. That would put Bruce at 43, Dick at 31, Tim at 20; and Damian at 13 or 14; which isn't too unreasonable. It still puts Damian's conception a bit on the early side (around Year 4, more or less); but while it's a tight fit, it's not an impossible one.

But that requires four years that we don't have. Which brings us back to shortening some careers and pushing Damian's birth back a little too far.