The strong history of sexism in the industry.

[WonderLight789]

Things seem to be improving with Marvel, mostly with the MCU. But we can't ignore that sexism has been going strong for a long time. Even recently. When Carol Danvers was introduced as the strongest in the MCU. It caused a lot of attacks from sexist people acting like she shouldn't be allowed to be that strong. Before that, she alñso ffaced a lot of hate for beating Iron Man in the comics. But that wasn't the first time. In the comics, Carol had a very difficult time for many years.

Her debut in 1968. Introduced her as a "girl" who, in the eyes of Captain Mar-Vell, is as stunning as the heavily guarded aircraft.

Comparing Carol to a vehicle. It's a a very common trend that has been present in comics for a long time. It shows the typical view of women within the industry. Her only role was to be the love interest and eye candy. But in Carol's case, the most terrible moment in terms of sexist treatment happened in the 80s. In the issue, Carol finds out she's seven months pregnant with a baby, despite not being pregnant the day before. As James Shooter, Marvel's editor-in-chief and lead writer on Avengers no. 200, would reveal, a villain named Marcus Immortus kidnapped Danvers against her will. Then, with the aid of machines, he more or less roofied her, impregnated her with a version of himself, and had her memory wiped. Carol Strickland, a comics historian wrote a brilliant essay about this,"The Rape of Ms. Marvel"Quote "The artwork goes to great lengths — two close-up panels — to show Ms. Marvel's ecstasy during the pseudo-mating," Strickland wrote. "Another lesson to be learned from comics. It's okay to rape. Women enjoy rape."

Carol's story gets worse. When she finds out the details of Marcus's plan, Danvers is angry. And she's frustrated that the other Avengers, many of whom are really happy this baby is being born, can't understand how in her own words, she feels that she has been "used". As Strickland points out, this flash of anger is well-done. It's how you responsibly handle a scene like this in comic books, how you indicate that a character has been abused and violated against her will. However, later all this this anger is taken away from her. She feels a soft-spot for Marcus and returns with him to his dimension. And this ending doesn't strike her peers as weird, even though they've heard her tale of brainwashing and rape. Once again, falling into another common ground that happens a lot in the media even today, trying to romanticize rape.


Carol isn't the only one in Marvel suffering from this. Jean Grey from the X-Men, Susan Storm in the Fantastic Four. And Black Widow, was only seen as a "gorgeous new menace" in a dress. Jean and Sue were considered the weakest components of their teams and were bailed out often by their husbands and boyfriends. Black Widow, meanwhile, was treated as just a sexy Russian spy, and thorn in Iron Man's side. Women were either there to play damsel in distress or to lure men into sexual temptation. And they are always portrayed as weaker than their male counterpart. Like She hulk, Batwoman, Supergirl etc are treated as less powerful, competent etc than their male versions.

And here are some more examples. If anybody wants to check.

https://www.ranker.com/list/sexist-c...lectionId=1708

https://www.ranker.com/list/sexist-m...hannah-collins



Then Wonder Woman. Created to be the face of equality. Yet many times her own label allowed her to be victim of sexism.


She has been historically stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury, Wise as Athena. A character with a message of sisterhood, equality and inclusion. But usually her message is destroyed by portrayals of angry bloodthirsty dum warrior, that needs batman and superman to teach her about love and kindness. She has just as many Gods powering her like shazam, black adaman. Yet it seems certain people just assume she is weaker, should be weaker. Because she is a woman? Who said her Godly powers be inferior? Who made such a rule? Did anybody wonder, why is it ok if shazam or ba to stand their ground against SM. But not WW?

If WW was created to have all the strength of superman, a message of equality and peace. How come she is usually treated as less and portrayed as more violent? And her sisterhood theme ignored in favor of a more male centered lore like the current one, with daddy zeus, a figure involved in a lot of rape in the myths, and a male twin brother, that was suggested to be stronger than her?

In the links i posted above, we have some examples involving WW. But here are some more examples of what i mean.


matt wagner and his trinity book.


She was treated as a weaklink.Superman protected her from granades explosions. He is always protecting her like she can't do anything on her own. Beaten down like a helpless ant by bizarro. Then the unbreakable lasso getting broken by him, when far greater forcrs couldn't do it. She also almost fainted from fumes. Getting wrecked by sybil. Struggling with bizarro again. While batman in a suit gives him more of a fight. And ghul giving WW a fight. SM and BM literally do all the heavy work in the story, while Diana goes from one beating to another. She is only there to praise SM. Be saved by him and BM. And for batman to fall ''prey'' of her grace. Besides getting beaten to a pulp and all. The best he could do with her was having batman rushing towards her to kiss her without her consent.


Jeph's treatment of WW in Superman and Batman.

The most infamous part is obviously the one where Superman easily overpowered her and killed her with her own lasso. I have seen that image used countless times by sexists on the internet talking about how Diana is nothing next to superman in terms of power. And the excuse used by the writer that is an elseworld story has gotten tired. As that is the same excuse writers like tom taylor use. Yet elseworld stories by those writers never stop them from portraying the male characters in a better light.

Ross in the non canon Justice comic. They pay attention to shazam having godly powers. Even saying he is faster than Superman because of the speed of Mercury. Yet Diana who also has powers from the Gods, is ignored. They only mention her gear that they basically describe as girl accessories.


geoff. He reduced WW to a glorified super human warrior that brags about killing, while superman has to teach her about compassion. And the way he treated her and Cheetah in WW84 no need to say more.


priest. His comment about WW. Saying i don't relate to white women in tiaras talking big talk. And how he had the allegedly powerghouse and greatest warrior according to DC, go down to a bullet that she also couldn't react to with those ''legendary'' reflexes of her.

tim from DCAU. They said they didn't know what to do with her. So she became the angry man hater that fell in love with batman.


Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons in for the man who has everything. Helpless against Mongul and beaten to a pulp, while he mocks her suggesting her to use a different weapon that is smaller in size, so it is more appropiate for a woman. Need i say more?

tom taylor. Basically all the stories where he has writen her. WW is either a trophy for batman or superman. A murder or a weak link. And sometimes all of that at the same time. For example in Dceased. She is killed in one hit by superman. WW is always portrayed as a weaklink next to men in taylor's weiting. Or next to women based on already existing male characters such as mary marvel, batwoman etc. He also always uses her to have her talking about how great batman and superman are. And usually acting like a bloodthirsty barbarian. Falling into cliches about the amazons. Very evident in dark knights of steel, where he says. " give an Amazon a magic sword, and every problem looks like something that should be stabbed''


WW from DCEU. A helpless fodder next to superman and steppenwolf. A very violent type of warrior woman. Once again, the typical cliche approacch to show a ''strong'' woman by many writers.


byrne. He takes every chance to downplay her and her mythos compared to other power houses of DC. He stablishes that the greek gods are but a fraction of the might of the New Gods, characters related to superman, what a coincidence. for example, and Diana says several times that she isn't as powerful as Superman or as fast as the Flash.


All while Captain Marvel / Shazam was shown as roughly equal to Superman in Post Crisis, and considered a magic Superman, and Diana's powers come from the same sources or equivalent ones to that of Shazam. Their powers that can be compared are:

Strength: Shazam - Hercules / Wonder Woman - Gea / Gaia, primordial Titan which is the Earth itself.

Endurance: Shazam - Atlas, a Titan / Wonder Woman - Gea / Gaia

Speed: Shazam - Mercury (Roman version of Hermes) / Wonder Woman - Hermes, god of messengers

Wisdom: Shazam - Solomon (ancient human magician) / Wonder Woman - Athena, Goddess of Wisdom''

But of course, there is a difference between shazam and WW. He is a man. So even if they have similar power sources. The male figure can be allowed to be more than the female one, even when their powers are the same in nature and origin. Powers from the Gods.

Can anybody say that this is not an issue. Why do we still deal with these bias writers that seem to be blinded by sexism. In their minds, women are always nothing next to the male characters. Not just in terms of power. But in principles, morality, intellect etc. Do you think all that i mentioned is just coincidence, or there is direct or subconsciously sexism involved?

[CSTowle]

I was hoping for more from this thread than whining about the power level of a fictional character (that changes as the story needs anyway). That said, yes Wonder Woman has historically been weaker than Superman. So have most other characters in superhero comics. That's not the point of Wonder Woman. Hell, that's not even the point of Superman. Relative power levels are only useful in crafting of a story and nerd arguments online (which we are in the right place for, if not on this particular board).

[WonderLight789]

I was hoping for more from this thread than whining about the power level of a fictional character (that changes as the story needs anyway). That said, yes Wonder Woman has historically been weaker than Superman. So have most other characters in superhero comics. That's not the point of Wonder Woman. Hell, that's not even the point of Superman. Relative power levels are only useful in crafting of a story and nerd arguments online (which we are in the right place for, if not on this particular board).

Interesting how you Ignored all the evidence presented in my post. And didn't even say anything about the other examples i gave.

[numberthirty]

...

So, when we live in a world where female characters still more often than not, get porttayed badly, writen as weaker than men. Where even the so called face of feminism and equality Wonder Woman, is treated like fodder next to the likes of superman and other alpha males. Where a Carol that was introduced as the strongest in the MCU, caused so much hate comments from certain groups of people. Can anybody say that this is not an issue. Why do we still deal with these bias writers that seem to be blinded by sexism. In their minds, women are always nothing next to the male characters. Not just in terms of power. But in principles, morality, intellect etc. Do you think all that i mentioned is just coincidence, or there is direct or subconsciously sexism involved? I think so.

Politely?

I see a grand total of right around "Two..." examples there.

Meanwhile, out in the rest of "The Industry..."?

- Storm was regent of the entire solar system.
- Don't even get me started on just how "All Powerful..." FM Mercury suspects Jean Grey is.
- Betsy was the most recent Captain Britain.
- Don't even get me started on that Destiny somehow pulled off coming back from beyond the grave when Moira gave Charles/Erik an order that Destiny needed to stay dead.
- Never mind Moira's "Next Level..." mutant ability.

[WonderLight789]

Politely?

I see a grand total of right around "Two..." examples there.

Meanwhile, out in the rest of "The Industry..."?

- Storm was regent of the entire solar system.
- Don't even get me started on just how "All Powerful..." FM Mercury suspects Jean Grey is.
- Betsy was the most recent Captain Britain.
- Don't even get me started on that Destiny somehow pulled off coming back from beyond the grave when Moira gave Charles/Erik an order that Destiny needed to stay dead.
- Never mind Moira's "Next Level..." mutant ability.

And the wway Jean was treated for so many years? Susan Storm? Black Widow?

[numberthirty]

And the wway Jean was treated for so many years? Susan Storm? Black Widow?

The Susan Storm in Hickman's run?

Ain't no way that I am about to buy that someone can convince me that she was somehow "Weak..."/"A Punching Bag..."

Never mind Valeria...

Again, it's kinda hard to take "Two..." examples seriously when I know that I can't toss an empty soda bottle without it hitting a perfectly "Equal..." female character.

Often?

Those female characters are superior.

[numberthirty]

- Jenny leads The Authority, and electrocuted God...
- Cole know that he has right around "Zero..." chance against Zealot in The Wild Storm.
- Void has to clean up Cole's mess after they attempt a "Rescue..." mission in The Wild Storm.
- Angie is what the plan to save the planet hinges on in the final issue(never mind that it was her plan...)
- Jackie outsmarts Crave and Baiul to wind up leading I/O when the dust settles.

[WonderLight789]

- Jenny leads The Authority, and electrocuted God...
- Cole know that he has right around "Zero..." chance against Zealot in The Wild Storm.
- Void has to clean up Cole's mess after they attempt a "Rescue..." mission in The Wild Storm.
- Angie is what the plan to save the planet hinges on in the final issue(never mind that it was her plan...)
- Jackie outsmarts Crave and Baiul to wind up leading I/O when the dust settles.

Sure. Keep telling yourself that sexism doesn't exist in comics. The evidence says otherwise.

[numberthirty]

Sure. Keep telling yourself that sexism doesn't exist in comics. The evidence says otherwise.

Politely...

Each one of those instances is "Evidence..."

Which would leave a count of five instances of women being in the driver's seat versus the two instances that you mentioned.

Which would be before we even went over Valeria in general or Susan during Hickman's run.

[numberthirty]

So, are there instances of potential sexism?

Sure, but those are there in every single aspect of the world that we are living in.

Once someone takes a little bit closer look?

Might not be a clean cut as "Strong..." history of sexism.

[WonderLight789]

So, are there instances of potential sexism?

Sure, but those are there in every single aspect of the world that we are living in.

Once someone takes a little bit closer look?

Might not be a clean cut as "Strong..." history of sexism.

How come it has been very common to see female characters portrayed as weaker, less intelligent, less competent than men? Because i'm sorry. But i don't see many stories were Supergirl is as powerful as SM. Where Batgirl is as smart as Batman. Where she hulk is just as strong as her cousin etc. Also, how would you describe the cases i mentioned at the start of this thread, if it doesn't involve sexism? Are you sure that Black widow, Wonder Woman, Carol Danvers haven't suffered from sexist treatment?

[Alan2099]

Jean and Sue were considered the weakest components of their teams and were bailed out often by their husbands and boyfriends.

You've never actually read any X-men comics, have you? The very first thing we see Jean do is picking up Beast like it was nothing and spinnning him around helplessly. That becomes a regualr thing for her. She just picks up and moves people, sometimes entire groups of people, with no effort. Meanwhile, one of her teammates is ... Angel. He has wings.

Waid and ross kingdom come. A WW that lost herself. Angry, bloodthirsty. And in the end. A glorified womb for superman's children. That have all the traits of him and nothing from her mother. Not to mention how they pay attention to shazam having godly powers. Yer Diana who also has them, is ignored. They only mention her gear that they basically describe as girl accessories.

EVERYONE in Kingdom Come had lost themselves. That was the point of the series. As for "children" she doesn't HAVE any children in the series. In fact your whole description of this is so off, I'm fairly sure you didn't read it either.

[numberthirty]

How come it has been very common to see female characters portrayed as weaker, less intelligent, less competent than men? Because i'm sorry. But i don't see many stories were Supergirl is as powerful as SM. Where Batgirl is as smart as Batman. Where she hulk is just as strong as her cousin etc. Also, how would you describe the cases i mentioned at the start of this thread, if it doesn't involve sexism? Are you sure that Black widow, Wonder Woman, Carol Danvers haven't suffered from sexist treatment?

They are two instances...

They do not "Prove..." something's existence any more than the five "Wildstorm..." related instances that I mentioned disprove there being sexism.

Some instances of sexism, maybe, playing into things?

That is not really proof of a "Strong..." history of something.

Past that, let's take one of the examples in this post I'm quoting...

Batgirl/Batman

Batman having been on the job longer and having a far wider breadth of training could account for him being "Smarter..." just as easily as sexism, no?

It's not like there is no logical bit of storytelling that gets you to Batman regularly being smarter than Batgirl, and the only possible reason for that being the case is sexism.

[numberthirty]

You've never actually read any X-men comics, have you? The very first thing we see Jean do is picking up Beast like it was nothing and spinnning him around helplessly. That becomes a regualr thing for her. She just picks up and moves people, sometimes entire groups of people, with no effort. Meanwhile, one of her teammates is ... Angel. He has wings.

...

Bobby literally threw snowballs...

[hyped78]

I thought I would find something different in this thread, like this:

https://www.ranker.com/list/sexist-m...hannah-collins