The strong history of sexism in the industry.

[WonderLight789]

Nice to see you're back to your "everything that disproves my point doesn't count" methods.

Interesting way to try to deflect.

[ed2962]

Amazing. Now show me SG winning against a non holding back superman.

Why don't you show examples of sexism against Sue Storm/Richards in 60's Marvel? Or Chauvinism against Jan Van Dyne/Pym in during the same period? Or over-sexualization of females in cape comics in general in the early 2000's? Or in horror/sci-fi mags in the late 70's-early 80's? I mean, there's more real sexism there than in who can punch who in a fictional story.

[mogwen]

One era I'd like to explore with you and see your take on is the Quesada era which saw Jean Grey dying again (her longest death, 14 years!) and Scarlet Witch becoming crazy and assaulting and even killing her teammates.
For me, there's a mysogynistic subtext that can't be ignored, from the terrible justification of Doctor Strange "well, she's crazy" to the Salem witches flavour. I remember how it shocked me at the time, as if Marvel was so afraid of women of power they had to demean them or outright kill them.
This got me out of Marvel for quite some time.

[WonderLight789]

Why don't you show examples of sexism against Sue Storm/Richards in 60's Marvel? Or Chauvinism against Jan Van Dyne/Pym in during the same period? Or over-sexualization of females in cape comics in general in the early 2000's? Or in horror/sci-fi mags in the late 70's-early 80's? I mean, there's more real sexism there than in who can punch who in a fictional story.

I already did.

Weak excuse to try to cover up the fact that the sexist industry portrays females as weaker than males.

[WonderLight789]

One era I'd like to explore with you and see your take on is the Quesada era which saw Jean Grey dying again (her longest death, 14 years!) and Scarlet Witch becoming crazy and assaulting and even killing her teammates.
For me, there's a mysogynistic subtext that can't be ignored, from the terrible justification of Doctor Strange "well, she's crazy" to the Salem witches flavour. I remember how it shocked me at the time, as if Marvel was so afraid of women of power they had to demean them or outright kill them.
This got me out of Marvel for quite some time.

The industry always has a double standard regarding women. Look at all the times they turned them evil or crazy if they have too much power(according to them)

[babyblob]

Didnt read all 8 pages of the thread yet so I am sure some of these have been posted but.

Why don't you show examples of sexism against Sue Storm/Richards in 60's Marvel? Or Chauvinism against Jan Van Dyne/Pym in during the same period? Or over-sexualization of females in cape comics in general in the early 2000's? Or in horror/sci-fi mags in the late 70's-early 80's? I mean, there's more real sexism there than in who can punch who in a fictional story.

I am not the OP but ehre are a coupe of things I noticed about Jan and Sue from the 60s's

Jan was portrayed often as an air head only interested in fashion and romance while Hank was the level headed get things done type. Jan was always in the Tales to Astonish issues as the girl in distress, mad Hank didnt notice a new out fit or hair cut. Being at a crime scene like a jewelry store and rather then look for clues she is eying rings and necklaces like that is all that matters. Always tried to be romantic with Hank. And even her motivation for becoming The Wasp was for Hank not to see her as a child and get him to fall in love with her. (Well after wanting to avenge the death of her dad)

There was the time in Fantastic Four When Doom gave the FF that Juice that made them see things. Sue saw Reed with another woman and flipped out. Then when she said sorry Reed replied with "Its okay as a woman you could not have reacted any different." Just an off handed one sentence statement that implied all woman are jealous and are unreasonable because of that jealousy.

There was also the issue where the FF fight the Hulk for the first time. Reed, ben and Johnny are talking about the things they will do to beat Hulk and Sue just kind of goes "I guess I am along for the ride." And Thunderbolt Ross talks about how having a pretty woman on base will lift the Morale of the male soldiers. Which 100 percent downplays anything of value Sue could add to the fight.

Or when they were on a dangerous mission and Sue was so upset that she turned invisible because no one noticed her new hair do. I think it was when they were going to The Great Refuge of the Inhumans for the first time. So yea on a dangerous mission that puts their lives at risk but all she cares about is her appearance and has her ego slighted because no one noticed a new hair cut. Despite being a member of the greatest Superhero team on Earth.

I know there was more then one issue where Sue and Jan both said sorry for being such a woman when they grew scared or the writer showed them being upset for no reason.



And for fun from Spiderman

Peter's Classmate with the great line "You stick to the science son we will stick to the chicks."

[godisawesome]

I think I *would* argue that, given the roster of characters they have at their disposal, DC seems to suffer more obvious “holding them back” issues with sexism, in comparison to Marvel having its own problems as well, but having more “excuses.”

Like… DC has had both Wonder Woman and Supergirl since the 50’s, had the arguably highest profile all-female superhero team since the 90s with Birds of Prey, and, to hit on the perennial complaint of “too many Batman books,” had three Batgirl characters who were surprise hits alongside Huntress and Catwoman all aligned with the good guys Pre-Flashpoint.

But we all know the way Didio tore through the Batgirls, the seeming perpetual inability to consistently deliver on Wonder Woman, and how Supergirl got chaotically handled for about 30-ish years.

So while I wouldn’t say that Marvel does better than DC, I would argue that if Dc was doing better, they would be meeting expectations based off their roster.

[babyblob]

Even in her early appearances in Avengers Jan would moon over Thor talk about how she hoped Ironman was handsome under the mask, made flirty comments to the other Avengers to make Hank jealous.

It was a long time before Marvel treated Jan with any kind of seriousness and wrote her more as the ditzy woman that talked fashion, make up, and flirted with the male leads (And I say leads because even though Jan was a founding Avenger she was always treated as more of a side kick then a real partner.)

[ed2962]

Didnt read all 8 pages of the thread yet so I am sure some of these have been posted but.



I am not the OP but ehre are a coupe of things I noticed about Jan and Sue from the 60s's

Jan was portrayed often as an air head only interested in fashion and romance while Hank was the level headed get things done type. Jan was always in the Tales to Astonish issues as the girl in distress, mad Hank didnt notice a new out fit or hair cut. Being at a crime scene like a jewelry store and rather then look for clues she is eying rings and necklaces like that is all that matters. Always tried to be romantic with Hank. And even her motivation for becoming The Wasp was for Hank not to see her as a child and get him to fall in love with her. (Well after wanting to avenge the death of her dad)

There was the time in Fantastic Four When Doom gave the FF that Juice that made them see things. Sue saw Reed with another woman and flipped out. Then when she said sorry Reed replied with "Its okay as a woman you could not have reacted any different." Just an off handed one sentence statement that implied all woman are jealous and are unreasonable because of that jealousy.

There was also the issue where the FF fight the Hulk for the first time. Reed, ben and Johnny are talking about the things they will do to beat Hulk and Sue just kind of goes "I guess I am along for the ride." And Thunderbolt Ross talks about how having a pretty woman on base will lift the Morale of the male soldiers. Which 100 percent downplays anything of value Sue could add to the fight.

Or when they were on a dangerous mission and Sue was so upset that she turned invisible because no one noticed her new hair do. I think it was when they were going to The Great Refuge of the Inhumans for the first time. So yea on a dangerous mission that puts their lives at risk but all she cares about is her appearance and has her ego slighted because no one noticed a new hair cut. Despite being a member of the greatest Superhero team on Earth.

I know there was more then one issue where Sue and Jan both said sorry for being such a woman when they grew scared or the writer showed them being upset for no reason.



And for fun from Spiderman

Peter's Classmate with the great line "You stick to the science son we will stick to the chicks."

Those are good examples. I remember one issue of the Silver Age FF where Reed was knocked out by the Moleman or something and the Thing had do CPR and he dismisses Sue by saying, "Stand back, your womanly tears can't save him!"

[ed2962]

One thing worth bringing up is the first appearance of the Lady Liberators in Avengers #83. The Valkyrie ( the Enchantress is disguise ) convinces the female heroes to turn against the men. In the end, it's revealed that her true motivation is that The Executioner dumped her for another woman.

The comic actually makes the argument you'd see lot 50 yrs ago against feminism..."You women libbers just need a good boyfriend, then you'll calm down."