The strong history of sexism in the industry.

[WonderLight789]

I've never been a fan of Wonder Woman because I find the character to be boring (in fairness, most of the "big 7" of the OG Justice League tend to be pretty boring to me most of the time). If you upped her powers to have her easily slapping around Superman, Lobo, Captain Marvel, and the entire GL Corps but kept everything else exactly the same I'd still have almost zero interest (writer/artist aside) in buying her book.

There are dozens of more interesting (to me, if that needs to be said) DC female characters, including half a dozen or so Bat-women, all far below her power level, but whose stories I would be more likely to pick up and read because of their histories (and the Bat-verse has a lot of great villains, I'd put their D-tier level villains above WW's A-tier in terms of interest).

I don't think power level has anything to do with sexism. I don't think DC wants anyone who has a spotlight to clearly be better than Superman and Batman, who are their icons. Wonder Woman is a lesser icon, as is Aquaman/Flash/Green Lantern/etc. I don't expect any of them to clearly outshine (either through power level or otherwise) those two because they want to protect the faces of the franchise. I'm not a fan of the character in the DC movie universe, but Harley Quinn is at least a more complicated and interesting character and often is overpowered or has setbacks. I think she's been handled better than WW, and (on the topic of the thread) has moved on from emotional/romantic attachment being the core of her character where we saw in '84 what even a modern mega-corporation with a female director no less thinks of Wonder Woman.

I'm sure that's sad for WW fans, and I'd say that's definitely an example of sexism and diminishment of her potential that you should be upset about. For me it just reinforces my disinterest in the character, and has me questioning who's looking out for the perception of even their lesser icons because (whatever else you might say about the DC cinematic universe) people seem to be really on-board with Gal Gadot and Jason Mamoa in their respective roles despite the spotty track record in terms of quality.

And when they are the ones that easily slapp her around is ok?

Their gender has a lot to do with how they are treated. The amount of hatred that Carol received for beating IronMan. Or when she beat Thor. And when she was introduced as the strongest in the MCU. You don't see that kind of reaction when it's a male character.



For WW, You hear a lot of lipservice from DC about how important and powerful she is. But if you look around. You will see the actual treatment of her and her lore, do not reflect that much respect for her core message of equality and girl power icon. Just look at Shazam compared to WW as one of the examples i gave. Think about it. You can use Alex Ross as an example. He has interviews and work with Wonder Woman in comics and other media . But when you look at his choices for Shazam compared to WW, read flags appear. The Choices that writers make, can reveal that there may be an influence of sexism subconsciously. It is always a good tell, when a separate standard defines the choices made for a character in a story depending on their gender, when outside of that, they literally share the same source of power.

[ed2962]

This was published back in the late 70's and the characters were evenly matched.

[ed2962]

But yeah, to echo what a couple of posters have said, if we're going to talk about sexism in comics, we shouldn't limit it to who could beat who in a fist fight back in the silver age.

[Catlady in training]

One thing I'm surprised there hasn't been more change in the comics themselves: costumes.

Oh God, yes. One of the things I liked about Captain Marvel movie was how they made her costume just a normal, practical one, without any concern for the male gaze. Some (most) of the costumes for female characters are crazy, take just how many of them have bare legs, thin high heels, corsets, etc. When of course, most male characters have full-body costumes with practical shoes.

[Alan2099]

One thing I would like to bring up and this isn't just in comics, but movies as well, is the tendency to try to make women powerful actually makes them look less impressive. This also plays with the stereotype of how it's bad to show violence against women.

The problem is that if you can't show violence against women, then they can't be tough.

I remember sometime back there was a big issue people had with a movie billboard that showed Apocalypse choking Mystique. Keep in mind Apocalypse was the badguy and Mystique was (in this case) the good guy. People didn't care. He was shown hurting a girl and that was wrong. The flipside of that is the big complaints about Captain Marvel and Rey in Star Wars was that they came off as too powerful. They never had any real challenge. They never got beat up.

Characters aren't tough simply because they can kickass. Characters come off as tough by overcoming adversity. Character get to be tough by getting their asskicked and then coming back for the win.

Look at the classic movie characters that people describe as strong females like Sarah Conner and Ripley, these are not characters that easily won. These are characters that struggled, got beatup, nearly killed, or all of the above. How can a character be tough if it's sexist to show them get beat up?

[JackDaw]

Oh God, yes. One of the things I liked about Captain Marvel movie was how they made her costume just a normal, practical one, without any concern for the male gaze. Some (most) of the costumes for female characters are crazy, take just how many of them have bare legs, thin high heels, corsets, etc. When of course, most male characters have full-body costumes with practical shoes.

Peter David’s Fallen Angel comic was specifically designed to try to attract more female readers, and a more practical costume selected as part of the design brief. That was back in 2003, and I thought we might have seen a notice-able shift in costumes since then…but not seen any big change.

[JackDaw]

Look at the classic movie characters that people describe as strong females like Sarah Conner and Ripley, these are not characters that easily won. These are characters that struggled, got beatup, nearly killed, or all of the above. How can a character be tough if it's sexist to show them get beat up?

Agreed, nothing worse than a character that wins too easily. (And, of course, exactly same applies to male characters.)

Thought the recent “The Woman King” movie is a good example of writing women warriors fairly well.

[WonderLight789]

This was published back in the late 70's and the characters were evenly matched.

The story stated that Superman held back all the time. So no.

[WonderLight789]

One thing I would like to bring up and this isn't just in comics, but movies as well, is the tendency to try to make women powerful actually makes them look less impressive. This also plays with the stereotype of how it's bad to show violence against women.

The problem is that if you can't show violence against women, then they can't be tough.

I remember sometime back there was a big issue people had with a movie billboard that showed Apocalypse choking Mystique. Keep in mind Apocalypse was the badguy and Mystique was (in this case) the good guy. People didn't care. He was shown hurting a girl and that was wrong. The flipside of that is the big complaints about Captain Marvel and Rey in Star Wars was that they came off as too powerful. They never had any real challenge. They never got beat up.

Characters aren't tough simply because they can kickass. Characters come off as tough by overcoming adversity. Character get to be tough by getting their asskicked and then coming back for the win.

Look at the classic movie characters that people describe as strong females like Sarah Conner and Ripley, these are not characters that easily won. These are characters that struggled, got beatup, nearly killed, or all of the above. How can a character be tough if it's sexist to show them get beat up?

Characters like Carol and WW have been treated as punching bags for male characters more often than not. And i am talking about big name characters. Beating canon fodder and C list male characters, you may find examples of that. But when you always see women usually gettying toss around against the more well known male characters. Red flags appear. How come she hulk has been historically just half as strong as her cousin? And Powergirl? And how come WW has been often treated as fodder next to superman? While a male characters with powers from Gods like hers, was treated as more of an equal to SM in pre flahpoint continuity? So female shouldn't win just because they are girls. I agree. But they shouldn't lose battles just because they are females either.

[CSTowle]

I'd argue that of female icons who have been set back in their prominence Wonder Woman pales in comparison to the woman who beat her in the (admittedly popularity-based) DC vs Marvel event of the mid-'90s, Storm. This was a woman who, through Chris Claremont's epic run and through the Lobdell/Nicezia era, was the absolute heart of the biggest comic book franchise in Western superhero comics in the X-Men.

So much so that when the time came for comic book fans to decide who was better between the "Big 3/Trinity/Icon" Wonder Woman, of TV and pop culture fame, or Storm she came out the victor. Then Grant Morrison comes along and while he told some fun X-Men stories (and some fun Grant Morrison stories, that incidentally used characters from the X-Men franchise as set pieces) he decided to revisit and elevate the Scott/Jean/Logan triangle and completely ignore Storm (though as I recall Claremont may have had dibs for his poorly selling X-Men fanfic).

After a couple of decades of writers trying to recapture the magic of his run and instead just following obvious formulas (Scott/Jean/Logan primary among them, and showing they have no understanding of Morrison's style at all) she was shunted off to being a side character like other formerly popular mutants before her like Rogue, Gambit, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc.

Now, ask the average comic reader under 40 (if you can find one interested in Marvel or DC, or floppies generally) what they think about Storm and the answer will probably involve all-time terrible dialogue from Halle Berry in the early oughts. Nothing Wonder Woman has experienced will ever match this fall from prominence, and unless Disney decides to feature her (and I'm very much hoping they do, but that's a long way away at the moment) when the X-Men come she's likely never going to attain the heights she did for the decades she was the heart of the team.

Also, I'd take a powerless mohawk Storm over any version of Wonder Woman, any day of the week.

[ed2962]

The story stated that Superman held back all the time. So no.

I'm pretty sure there's a scene where Clark gets angry and stops holding back.

But more importantly, let me ask, are there ways that you feel the industry is sexist either on the page or behind scenes that are not about power levels?

[ed2962]

Peter David’s Fallen Angel comic was specifically designed to try to attract more female readers, and a more practical costume selected as part of the design brief. That was back in 2003, and I thought we might have seen a notice-able shift in costumes since then…but not seen any big change.

I think there's been a dialing back on the hyper over sexualization of female characters in superhero comics. Characters are still sexy, but 10-15-ish years ago we were at the height of the "broke-back" poses, the "porn tracing", and even characters like Catwoman and Black widow who's suits are supposed to cover their whole bodies being drawn with the cleavage open to their navels.

[JackDaw]

I think there's been a dialing back on the hyper over sexualization of female characters in superhero comics. Characters are still sexy, but 10-15-ish years ago we were at the height of the "broke-back" poses, the "porn tracing", and even characters like Catwoman and Black widow who's suits are supposed to cover their whole bodies being drawn with the cleavage open to their navels.

You’ll probably right…I tend to read the few comics I read nowadays years in arrears..so I’ll take your view on most current stuff over mine any day of the week. (I’m currently reading the Matt Wagner Sandman Mystery Theatre, for example.)

[WonderLight789]

I'm pretty sure there's a scene where Clark gets angry and stops holding back.

But more importantly, let me ask, are there ways that you feel the industry is sexist either on the page or behind scenes that are not about power levels?

Nope. It was confirmed he was always holding back.

Of course. Which is why i talked about other topics in my post as well. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking, that the capabilities of female characters in comics have been affected many times by sexist visions.

[WonderLight789]

I'd argue that of female icons who have been set back in their prominence Wonder Woman pales in comparison to the woman who beat her in the (admittedly popularity-based) DC vs Marvel event of the mid-'90s, Storm. This was a woman who, through Chris Claremont's epic run and through the Lobdell/Nicezia era, was the absolute heart of the biggest comic book franchise in Western superhero comics in the X-Men.

So much so that when the time came for comic book fans to decide who was better between the "Big 3/Trinity/Icon" Wonder Woman, of TV and pop culture fame, or Storm she came out the victor. Then Grant Morrison comes along and while he told some fun X-Men stories (and some fun Grant Morrison stories, that incidentally used characters from the X-Men franchise as set pieces) he decided to revisit and elevate the Scott/Jean/Logan triangle and completely ignore Storm (though as I recall Claremont may have had dibs for his poorly selling X-Men fanfic).

After a couple of decades of writers trying to recapture the magic of his run and instead just following obvious formulas (Scott/Jean/Logan primary among them, and showing they have no understanding of Morrison's style at all) she was shunted off to being a side character like other formerly popular mutants before her like Rogue, Gambit, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc.

Now, ask the average comic reader under 40 (if you can find one interested in Marvel or DC, or floppies generally) what they think about Storm and the answer will probably involve all-time terrible dialogue from Halle Berry in the early oughts. Nothing Wonder Woman has experienced will ever match this fall from prominence, and unless Disney decides to feature her (and I'm very much hoping they do, but that's a long way away at the moment) when the X-Men come she's likely never going to attain the heights she did for the decades she was the heart of the team.

Also, I'd take a powerless mohawk Storm over any version of Wonder Woman, any day of the week.

Carol and WW still have had worse treatment.