The strong history of sexism in the industry.

[godisawesome]

One thing I would like to bring up and this isn't just in comics, but movies as well, is the tendency to try to make women powerful actually makes them look less impressive. This also plays with the stereotype of how it's bad to show violence against women.

The problem is that if you can't show violence against women, then they can't be tough.

I remember sometime back there was a big issue people had with a movie billboard that showed Apocalypse choking Mystique. Keep in mind Apocalypse was the badguy and Mystique was (in this case) the good guy. People didn't care. He was shown hurting a girl and that was wrong. The flipside of that is the big complaints about Captain Marvel and Rey in Star Wars was that they came off as too powerful. They never had any real challenge. They never got beat up.

Characters aren't tough simply because they can kickass. Characters come off as tough by overcoming adversity. Character get to be tough by getting their asskicked and then coming back for the win.

Look at the classic movie characters that people describe as strong females like Sarah Conner and Ripley, these are not characters that easily won. These are characters that struggled, got beatup, nearly killed, or all of the above. How can a character be tough if it's sexist to show them get beat up?

Characters like Carol and WW have been treated as punching bags for male characters more often than not. And i am talking about big name characters. Beating canon fodder and C list male characters, you may find examples of that. But when you always see women usually gettying toss around against the more well known male characters. Red flags appear. How come she hulk has been historically just half as strong as her cousin? And Powergirl? And how come WW has been often treated as fodder next to superman? While a male characters with powers from Gods like hers, was treated as more of an equal to SM in pre flahpoint continuity? So female shouldn't win just because they are girls. I agree. But they shouldn't lose battles just because they are females either.

"Powerful Action Girls" have a very weird, complicated history of hypocrisy, progress, and inconsistency behind them - enough that almost any debate about them can end up being skewed and weird.

Like, I've always argued that Rey beating Kylo in the final fight of The Force Awakens is actually a good climax to both their story arcs in that film, one where the gender of the hero wouldn't matter, but others see it as "shilling" the female character for a cheap "girl power message;" it comes down to whether one decides the film did enough work or not to show Kylo *was* the superior fighter overall and merely succumbed to attrition and self-destructive choices, since he twice knocks her out without trying, is in mid-mental breakdown, gets gut shot by Chewie, and further wounded by Finn whie toying with him, all while holding back against Rey during the final duel for his own reasons.

In that case, I can see people being suspicious of her capability and of the film "preaching" about powerful women... but I tend to think those complaints aren't really respectable enough to be a legitimate criticism of the movie.

But in contrast, I tend to think Rey is simultaneously made to look even more exaggeratedly formidable in a physical sense in the next film, The Last Jedi... but that TLJ also makes her seem EXTREMELY mentally weak and the overall treatment is sexist because of how she's written around Kylo in that film, creating a weird dichotomy where the film's preaching a hypocritical version of sexism disguised as feminism where she can be a strong woman... but "must" be attracted to violent sociopaths and let them abuse and use her because she's a woman.

She-Hulk, Wonder Woman, Scarlet Witch and other female power houses have a similar weird dichotomy - writers try to write them as powerhouses and get accused of shilling in a harmful way, then other writers write them as physical powerhouses but still expoe them to sexist treatment for their character flaws, etc.

[numberthirty]

Nope. It was confirmed he was always holding back.

Of course. Which is why i talked about other topics in my post as well. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking, that the capabilities of female characters in comics have been affected many times by sexist visions.

Please explain, in detail, exactly where it was "Confirmed..." that he was truly "Holding Back..." every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

[numberthirty]

Carol and WW still have had worse treatment.

So...

There are, what, essentially two really concrete instances in an entire medium?

That is what constitutes this "Strong..." history of sexism?

[numberthirty]

Well, of course there's sexism, or at least stereotyping of women, in comic books. Creators are human beings, and for the most part have historically been men--why should they be expected to be particularly enlightened? They're getting paid to work in an industry that focuses on fiction, fantasy, etc. In general they're going to write/create women characters that conform to their own viewpoints/fantasies, whether it's 1960s women who loved shopping and were often dependent on men (original 1960s depictions of Sue, Jean, etc.) to today's women can do everything! while wearing skintight/very little clothing! mode. In other words, for any given era it's men's stereotyping of that generation's "perfect woman."

And let's face it, it's also what the comic book-reading target audience wants, and the target audience for superheroes is still largely composed of men. One need only take a look at, say, the CBR Community Cover Contest and note the frequent posting of cheesecake (putting it mildly) covers that blatantly objectify women and reduce women to sexual fantasy stereotypes.

Interesting. Because some people here suggested that Sue, Jean etc were never treated in a sexist way.

Here's the really obvious question...

The very first issue of The Fantastic Four...

Does Susan call any man a coward during that issue?

Once you actually think over if she actually does or does not in the issue in question?

One would have to ask themselves if they are setting aside the actual entirety of Susan as a character to see a character that is being written in a sexist fashion.

[numberthirty]

Characters like Carol and WW have been treated as punching bags for male characters more often than not. And i am talking about big name characters. Beating canon fodder and C list male characters, you may find examples of that. But when you always see women usually gettying toss around against the more well known male characters. Red flags appear. How come she hulk has been historically just half as strong as her cousin? And Powergirl? And how come WW has been often treated as fodder next to superman? While a male characters with powers from Gods like hers, was treated as more of an equal to SM in pre flahpoint continuity? So female shouldn't win just because they are girls. I agree. But they shouldn't lose battles just because they are females either.

Because she was never actually exposed to the detonation of an actual gamma bomb?

Talking about those two characters like we can make an "Apple..."/"Apple..." comparison makes right around "Zero..." sense. They came by there powers under largely different circumstances.

To expect that those two different sets of circumstances would yield an almost identical set of powers just does not make much sense.

[numberthirty]

Take Doc Samson...

Different set of circumstances/We know that he cannot leap anywhere near as far as Hulk/She-Hulk.

They have been pretty straightforward about the idea that Gamma exposure is not just a "Single Possible Power Set..." proposition.

[WonderLight789]

Please explain, in detail, exactly where it was "Confirmed..." that he was truly "Holding Back..." every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

Because i read the comic. He was holding back. IOn page 40 nhe says he has been uncounsciously pulling his punches the whole time. Because she is a friend AND oh wow, a woman.

[WonderLight789]

Because she was never actually exposed to the detonation of an actual gamma bomb?

Talking about those two characters like we can make an "Apple..."/"Apple..." comparison makes right around "Zero..." sense. They came by there powers under largely different circumstances.

To expect that those two different sets of circumstances would yield an almost identical set of powers just does not make much sense.

There is always an excuse uh? To explain how females are weaker than their male counterparts. Supergirl, Powergirl, She Hulk, etc. always a good excuse as to why they are shown as less. And WW? Why would she be weaker than SM if she was created to be equal? Why would she be weaker than shazam when both have the same source of power? Why is she portrayed as dumb next to batman and others? As too irrational, emotional. Why is her message of peace and sisterhood ignored to give room for daddy zeus, and twin male brother that was suggested to be stronger than her?

Carol? Why was she just eye candy for many years? Why was she given an arc where she left with the man that raped her? Why there have been so many hate comments since she beat Ironman, Thor and was introduced as the strongest in the MCU? Why? A woman can't be the absolute top? Why?

[numberthirty]

Because i read the comic. He was holding back. IOn page 40 nhe says he has been uncounsciously pulling his punches the whole time. Because she is a friend AND oh wow, a woman.

Here is the incredibly obvious issue with that assessment of what is on the page...

First, is that the only thought bubble in that very panel that you are saying proves that he is holding back throughout the entirety of that issue?

Second, if not? What does any other thought bubble in that panel say?

(Never mind the next panel...)

[numberthirty]

There is always an excuse uh? To explain how females are weaker than their male counterparts. Supergirl, Powergirl, She Hulk, etc. always a good excuse as to why they are shown as less. And WW? Why would she be weaker than SM if she was created to be equal? Why would she be weaker than shazam when both have the same source of power? Why is she portrayed as dumb next to batman and others? As too irrational, emotional. Why is her message of peace and sisterhood ignored to give room for daddy zeus, and twin male brother that was suggested to be stronger than her?

Carol? Why was she just eye candy for many years? Why was she given an arc where she left with the man that raped her? Why there have been so many hate comments since she beat Ironman, Thor and was introduced as the strongest in the MCU? Why? A woman can't be the absolute top? Why?

She-Hulk can literally jump farther than her male counterpart Doc Samson.

That is the literal opposite of how things would be if she was actually weaker than her male counterparts.

[WonderLight789]

Here is the incredibly obvious issue with that assessment of what is on the page...

First, is that the only thought bubble in that very panel that you are saying proves that he is holding back throughout the entirety of that issue?

Second, if not? What does any other thought bubble in that panel say?

(Never mind the next panel...)

He said he has been pulling his punches because she is a woman and a friend. And says that he will stop holding back. BUT. Before we get to see how the fight would go without him holding back. The fight was interrupted. Again. Page 40 and onwards.

[WonderLight789]

She-Hulk can literally jump farther than her male counterpart Doc Samson.

That is the literal opposite of how things would be if she was actually weaker than her male counterparts.

Call me when we see She hulk matching Hulk's feats.

Nothing to say about Supergirl, Powergirl, Wonder Woman, Carol?

[Alan2099]

Because i read the comic. He was holding back. IOn page 40 nhe says he has been uncounsciously pulling his punches the whole time. Because she is a friend AND oh wow, a woman.

You're leaving out a LOT of important context.
And he says that while he's flying through the air backwards after a big splash page of Woman Woman hitting him and sending him flying.

After proclaiming he was holding back, he throws something at her and they stop fighting. So at most Superman claims he could do better, but we never actually see it.

That hardly makes Wonder woman look bad.

[numberthirty]

He said he has been pulling his punches because she is a woman and a friend. And says that he will stop holding back. BUT. Before we get to see how the fight would go without him holding back. The fight was interrupted. Again. Page 40 and onwards.

Which means there is absolutely a point where he is no longer holding back.

It is clear as day. Whatever happens after that is essentially a non-issue.

[WonderLight789]

You're leaving out a LOT of important context.
And he says that while he's flying through the air backwards after a big splash page of Woman Woman hitting him and sending him flying.

After proclaiming he was holding back, he throws something at her and they stop fighting. So at most Superman claims he could do better, but we never actually see it.

That hardly makes Wonder woman look bad.

Page 40 says he was holding back and that he will stop holding back. But we never see how the fight would go after that. Because soon after the fight was interrupted. As usual. The lipservice of DC saying WW is a peer of Superman. But in all their fights where he doesn't kill her or beat her easily. They make sure to put context that stop the fight before things escalate any further. I wonder why. Sigh