THE definitive Avengers villain?

[Nomads1]

LOL.....I'd vote for your list Nomads1 ... No comment on Bendis

Yes, including Bendis would have been unfair. He'd win it by landslide!

Interesting list.

If you're going to include Bendis, wouldn't it be fair to include Gruenwald, a rightly beloved man, but who as Editor apparently required the "dissassembling" of the Avengers, the consequences of which resulted in Doctor Druid becoming a deluded conspirator (and basically unusable as a hero subsequently), and Captain Marvel as an over-promoted hack, and which resulted in (briefly) Reed Richards and co ending up as Avengers? Or for that matter, the creative team who were in charge of The Crossing?

Poor Bendis, always gets so much flack for an essentially familiar idea At least Avengers Disassembled led to House of M - which may arguably have had bad creative results for the Marvel Universe as a whole (dictated by editorial) - but was in my view a very well written and beautifully illustrated story, and which also led to one of the IMO best Captain America issues of all time, Brubaker's Captain America #10.

Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree with Gru and the Crossing. I actually liked quite a lot Simonson's run after Stern's (which IS my all time favorite Avengers run), and was quite curious to see what he had in mind for the team, however never had a chance to show. And I'm probably one of the few people alive who actually enjoyed the Crossing. Now, if you had mentioned Liefield's Heroes Reborn or Austen...
And I don't hate House of M as so many people seem to do. It is probably my favorite Bendis event (which, in all honesty, is not saying much). And, like Bendis or not, he always gets the best artists working on his projects.

Peace

[just another user]

Yes, including Bendis would have been unfair. He'd win it by landslide!

Avengers fans have a lot to thank Bendis for. He saved the franchise, turned it around and made them Marvels biggest super hero team.

[Nomads1]

Avengers fans have a lot to thank Bendis for. He saved the franchise, turned it around and made them Marvels biggest super hero team.

Sorry, not gonna turn this into another Bendis savior or destroyer thread. It was just a harmless joke. Let's just agree to disagree.

Peace

[hawkeyefan]

So, my list would be:

Baron Helmut Zemo and/or the Masters of Evil
Count Nefaria
Morgan Le Fey
Grandmaster
Immortus
Kang the Conqueror
The Supreme Inteligence
Loki
Korvac
Graviton (or Bendis)
Nebula.
The Zodiac
Thanos
Ultron
The Collector.


I tried to keep aways from mainly West Coast Avengers foes such as Master Pandemonium, Alkhema and Doc Demonicus and the Pacific Overlords, and New Avengers ones, because, quite frankly, I find them terrible. Really can't see how someone could claim that the Avengers foes are lame.

Peace

What, no Blank? No Egghead? Shenanigans!!!

Honestly, that's a pretty solid list. I'd throw the Skrulls on there, I suppose, but otherwise it's good to go.

For a team that's been around as long as they have, if Kang is your greatest villain that says your rogue's gallery is pretty lame. Ultron as killer robot just seems so '50s at this point. At least with the Phalanx/techno-organic hivemind thing he seemed like a threat. Otherwise he's just a "brick" type like Nefaria. High end invulnerability and power, but in the end just a killer robot. No wonder Wanda's a contender, given the competition (Loki's a Thor villain, when he/she's a villain at all).

Ultron is a lot more than a brick. At least, usually it is. It's been through several different incarnations over the years, and I guess there are a couple that could be categorized as bricks. But usually, that isn't the case at all.

And as for Loki, he hasn't fought them a ton of times, but those times have been notable. Especially that first time that brought the team together. That warrants a place on the list.

[Rochedalaix]

Doom undoubtedly has prepped for Nefaria since Val is setting these goals for him to meet. Even without that, it's not like he wouldn't have researched him prior to that considering Nefaria's base of operations would not be all that far away from Latveria.



I would not include Wanda in the same category as a criminally insane Joker. There's a big difference. He is conscious of what he is doing and does it deliberately, like crippling Barbara Gordon. He takes pleasure in the misery he causes.

I only care about consequences and the results of ones actions, so to me Scarlet Witch is a villain despite what Bendis or anyone else thinks or says, because what is shown is that she has caused more damage to the Avengers and Young Avengers than any other villain has, and will most likely continue to do so, and no amount of brainwashing from Bendis or Marvel is going to change that.

[hawkeyefan]

I only care about consequences and the results of ones actions, so to me Scarlet Witch is a villain despite what Bendis or anyone else thinks or says, because what is shown is that she has caused more damage to the Avengers and Young Avengers than any other villain has, and will most likely continue to do so, and no amount of brainwashing from Bendis or Marvel is going to change that.

So then based on that, how do you feel about characters in similar situations? Characters who were once on the wrong side, or who were influenced by outside forces into doing harm?

Characters like:
Magneto
Namor
Dr. Druid
Cyclops
Moondragon
Dr. Strange
Wolverine

All of them would be villains based on your description.

[Rochedalaix]

So then based on that, how do you feel about characters in similar situations? Characters who were once on the wrong side, or who were influenced by outside forces into doing harm?

Characters like:
Magneto
Namor
Dr. Druid
Cyclops
Moondragon
Dr. Strange
Wolverine

All of them would be villains based on your description.

Yup all of them are villains, but unlike Scarlet Witch at least some of them are villains I can respect.

[AcesX1X]

i think an important distinction should be made. "definitive villain vs. definitive current villain"

for example, i consider magneto to be the ultimate x-men villain. he's just iconic. no one will ever be as great as he. but right now, he is not playing a villain (depending on your perspective). in fact, there were several times in history where he played hero and not villain.

but he's still definitive villain.

[hawkeyefan]

Yup all of them are villains, but unlike Scarlet Witch at least some of them are villains I can respect.

Wow, that's kind of a strange way to look at it. Almost every superhero has had a "going bad" or mind control story. I only listed a few off the top of my head.

i think an important distinction should be made. "definitive villain vs. definitive current villain"

for example, i consider magneto to be the ultimate x-men villain. he's just iconic. no one will ever be as great as he. but right now, he is not playing a villain (depending on your perspective). in fact, there were several times in history where he played hero and not villain.

but he's still definitive villain.

I prefer him as a villain, but that's mostly because heroic Magneto blows compared to villainous Magneto. He's so much better as a sympathetic villain than as a reformed villain. Reformed villains are a dime a dozen, while sympathetic villains in the world of superhero comics are few and far between.

But the way you think of Magneto is, I think, the same way many readers view Scarlet Witch, in that she's a definitive hero despite recent takes. So, while you may always think of Magneto as a villain, at least in the overall sense, there are plenty who think of Scarlet Witch as a hero that way in the overall sense, and that is why her placement on a list like this ruffles some feathers.

Personally, I give all the characters a pass who have been used in stories as villains or the victims of mind control or possession....there's just too many examples to pick and choose on a case by case basis. Especially given that we all know it's all the whims if the creators anyway.

Characters do generally have that "default setting" like you have for Magneto.

[AcesX1X]

well here's a thought. maybe if the avengers got more noteworthy villains - then they would be an obvious choice? being totally serious here, but the avengers most famous story is dissassembled. not kang war, not celestial madonna, or kree/skull war. everyone's been impacted by that story. so maybe marvel should put some effort into the avenger bank of villains than they have until now -- because a vote for kang or immortus is just dubious for this sort of rank.

[Nomads1]

well here's a thought. maybe if the avengers got more noteworthy villains - then they would be an obvious choice? being totally serious here, but the avengers most famous story is dissassembled. not kang war, not celestial madonna, or kree/skull war. everyone's been impacted by that story. so maybe marvel should put some effort into the avenger bank of villains than they have until now -- because a vote for kang or immortus is just dubious for this sort of rank.

Says Who?

Peace

[AcesX1X]

Says Who?

Peace

by sheer volume of recognition. face it, disassembled is more widely-known and influential. not because it was such an amazing story, but because it impacted the most people. for avenger fans, it broke the foundations of their team apart. for non-avenger fans, it was the road to house of m, so many of us were exposed to it anyway.

[Nomads1]

by sheer volume of recognition. face it, disassembled is more widely-known and influential. not because it was such an amazing story, but because it impacted the most people. for avenger fans, it broke the foundations of their team apart. for non-avenger fans, it was the road to house of m, so many of us were exposed to it anyway.

Comics nowadays, in average, reach about 60 000 to 100 000 on a good day, whereas, once, it routinely reached double that number. Kree-Skrull War, Celestial Madonna, and Under Seige, just to name a few (none of them my personal favorite), were popular when the readership was that big, all of them affected the Marvel Universe at large (K/S War and Celestial Madonna pratically defined the foundation of the cosmic Marvel Universe, a foundation that is used to this day, and both were written by Marvel's then golden boys, pretty much what Bendis is nowadays). All have been quite often reprinted. Bendis is Marvel's current golden boy, they push his books as much as the can, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a Marvel Universe before he came along, and that there wasn't a readership before the current crop. Just because people tend to ignore the past, doesn't mean that it isn't there or that it doesn't affect us. Unlike what some may believe (largely due, of course, to the Marvel hype-machine), Bendis didn't create nor save the Avengers franchise. It was selling basically more than what he sold on his best day, just a few years before, with Busiek and Perez. It was not at the top of its sales previous to Bendis comming along mostly due to a run that was advertised as being short and finite (Geoff Johns, which was right from the bat announced that would be interrupted when he left to join DC exclusively, causing some people to not commit to it) and to a short and terrible run (Austen's, before Bendis, Quesada's go to guy). But nothing that any good writer couldn't have brought up without tearing the house down or whoring out the franchise. Thing is, Marvel had the movie rights to the Avengers characters. Editorial wanted to make noise about them, make them big. That's what made them Marvel number one, not (just) Bendis. It was going to happen. Could have been almost anyone (except maybe Austen). Even the movie took more from Stan Lee's original story and Millar's Ultimates (which I'm not also a huge fan, by the way. But it has it's merits), than from Bendis "revolutionary take". Except for bringing in Spider-man and Wolverine, what exactly was so impactful and original about Bendis run or Dissassembled in particular? The mansion was destroyed? Read Under Seige. Scarlett Witch goes bad? Read darker than Scarlet. The Avengers dissassembled to be replaced by an unorthodox team? Read Simonson's run. Spider-Man joins? Byrne did it first. It's all hype.

Peace

[AcesX1X]

disassembled is what led many readers to go pick up darker than scarlet in the first place. probably because disassembled reached a larger audience than any of those other books you mention.

[Nomads1]

disassembled is what led many readers to go pick up darker than scarlet in the first place. probably because disassembled reached a larger audience than any of those other books you mention.

As I said, current audience not the same as larger audience. During Byrne's run, WCA averaged at 150 000 readers. Everybody talks about all the readers that Bendis brought aboard (most of them, spidey and x-readers). What about the ones that he drove away? Why is that never factored in?

Peace

Edit: well, I said I didn't want to transform this into a Bendis saviour or destroyer? thread, so, kindly, I'll bow out of this particular discussion.