THE definitive Avengers villain?

[Rochedalaix]

Doom killed Cassie Lang there is no question or doubt about it in the same manner SW target with "No More Mutant" was no more mutants and not killing people.

I don't like when people twist things so much and I know the result were dead people but to be honest I could be her when I'm really under stress to the point I nearly break I don't think straight. I want to escape the situation by getting rid of what caused the situation. She wasn't by any means able to see the consequences about what she was doing.

People that make the same mistakes over and over again don't deserve compassion or sympathy.

[stingnewell]

People that make the same mistakes over and over again don't deserve compassion or sympathy.

So because she's been mind control that makes her evil. Wow thats some poor logic. But whatever at least Jean Grey is still 10 feet under if only the same thing can happen to Emma Frost.

[electr1cgoblin]

People that make the same mistakes over and over again don't deserve compassion or sympathy.

EVERYONE deserves compassion and sympathy. Period.

[dragonmp93]

So because she's been mind control that makes her evil. Wow thats some poor logic. But whatever at least Jean Grey is still 10 feet under if only the same thing can happen to Emma Frost.

Well, actually, she has been living in a kind-of afterlife place for the last 10 years; and she could be manipulating everything an everyone from there, for all we know.

EVERYONE deserves compassion and sympathy. Period.

Everyone but Cyclops, apparently.

[stingnewell]

Well, actually, she has been living in a kind-of afterlife place for the last 10 years; and she could be manipulating everything an everyone from there, for all we know.



Everyone but Cyclops, apparently.

Well Jean was always scum so good riddance to her. Now if only we can destroy the white hot room and end her influence once and for all. That will keep people quiet from demanding her resurrection. As to Cyclops eh its just a phase he'll be loved again soon.

[electr1cgoblin]

Well Jean was always scum so good riddance to her. Now if only we can destroy the white hot room and end her influence once and for all. That will keep people quiet from demanding her resurrection. As to Cyclops eh its just a phase he'll be loved again soon.

OK, back up a bit...Jean was "always scum"? You're being sarcastic, right? If not...evidence of her being "scum", please?

[stingnewell]

OK, back up a bit...Jean was "always scum"? You're being sarcastic, right? If not...evidence of her being "scum", please?

I'm not being serious I'm just going by the Wanda hater's logic of hating a character and since Jean destroyed a galaxy along with those Shiar military logically she needs to be hated as well. Oh and Rogue needs to be killed off soon preferably by Carol after that stunt she pulled in putting Carol in a coma seems about right that Carol deserves revenge.

[electr1cgoblin]

I'm not being serious I'm just going by the Wanda hater's logic of hating a character and since Jean destroyed a galaxy along with those Shiar military logically she needs to be hated as well. Oh and Rogue needs to be killed off soon preferably by Carol after that stunt she pulled in putting Carol in a coma seems about right that Carol deserves revenge.

Whew, OK, thought so, but it's hard to gauge tone from posts in a forum.

Yeah there's an incredible double standard when it comes to Wanda, for whatever reason. People like Magneto and Loki (!!) are given their own books and are portrayed sympathetically, after committing atrocities and evil acts for decades (in real time), where Wanda goes berserk and does some bad stuff that gets 'undone', all because of being manipulated and abused by various entities, and suddenly she's the Devil Incarnate. No redemption, no sympathy, no understanding or factoring in of her VERY heroic history. She's just EVIL, and must be destroyed. It's like working backwards from the premise that "Wanda is bad" and nothing penetrates, not examples, not history, not logic, not comparison. Nothing.

[stingnewell]

Whew, OK, thought so, but it's hard to gauge tone from posts in a forum.

Yeah there's an incredible double standard when it comes to Wanda, for whatever reason. People like Magneto and Loki (!!) are given their own books and are portrayed sympathetically, after committing atrocities and evil acts for decades (in real time), where Wanda goes berserk and does some bad stuff that gets 'undone', all because of being manipulated and abused by various entities, and suddenly she's the Devil Incarnate. No redemption, no sympathy, no understanding or factoring in of her VERY heroic history. She's just EVIL, and must be destroyed. It's like working backwards from the premise that "Wanda is bad" and nothing penetrates, not examples, not history, not logic, not comparison. Nothing.

Thats the unfortunate truth of fandom and double standards when logic can't seem to penetrate the thick headedness just go over the top in sarcastic tone that they eventually go away.

Speaking of titles why is X-23 getting a title that murderous she devil is so easily manipulated by trigger X she's a danger to herself and the general public better to put her down like Lassie than let her continue killing without provocation also I'm getting really tired of her cutting herself like some pathetic victim.

[Ravin' Ray]

That's going too far about Jean if her being "scum" is taken at face value. And I would extend to Cyclops a measure of mercy and a chance for redemption as many have done for Wanda.

[Iron Maiden]

Whew, OK, thought so, but it's hard to gauge tone from posts in a forum.

Yeah there's an incredible double standard when it comes to Wanda, for whatever reason. People like Magneto and Loki (!!) are given their own books and are portrayed sympathetically, after committing atrocities and evil acts for decades (in real time), where Wanda goes berserk and does some bad stuff that gets 'undone', all because of being manipulated and abused by various entities, and suddenly she's the Devil Incarnate. No redemption, no sympathy, no understanding or factoring in of her VERY heroic history. She's just EVIL, and must be destroyed. It's like working backwards from the premise that "Wanda is bad" and nothing penetrates, not examples, not history, not logic, not comparison. Nothing.

Loki instigated the deaths of perhaps thousands at Soldier Field (no, they weren't suicidal because Jay Cutler threw another interception ) by manipulating Osborn so he could get an attack going on Asgard over Broxton. Then he became all cutesy and eats pancakes with the Young Avengers. The whole Chicago incident, in which they trying to make Volstagg the fall guy, has been mostly forgotten. Tom Hiddleston saved his bacon for him I must say.

[Nomads1]

Everyone but Cyclops, apparently.

I thought that, with the exception of some more radical Wolverine and Storm fans, Cyclops was starting to get some love back again, especially as they reveal Xavier asw being more and more decitful and manipulative at every turn. I, for one, love the character. Always was my favorite X-Men.

Peace

[CSTowle]

I thought that, with the exception of some more radical Wolverine and Storm fans, Cyclops was starting to get some love back again, especially as they reveal Xavier asw being more and more decitful and manipulative at every turn. I, for one, love the character. Always was my favorite X-Men.

Peace

I think it's more a tribal thing, people picking sides. Either it's Cyclops/Wolverine, or Avengers/Cyclops (since Wolverine plays both sides of the field). I make my decision by reading the comics, so what the writers introduce influences my decision on which tribe I'm willing to support. Starting in Civil War, it was obvious that Captain America's anti-registration heroes were meant to be the good guys. In AvX it was clear the X-Men were supposed to be. They tried to introduce events that made you question both sides, but the overall arc and the end results ultimately decided who was right in the end.

Now like fans of sports teams you'll have homer types trying to argue why the pro-registration side were the heroes (conveniently ignoring things like Clor), and people saying the Avengers totally did the right thing showing up guns blazing on Utopia to kidnap Hope when there were about a thousand other ways that situation could have been handled in a timely fashion and with almost no hostility. Or Wanda fans right here in this thread willing to go to the mat to explain why her fundamentally altering the genetic make-up of millions of people and resulting in at least a few deaths (and possibly quite a few, especially if the multiversal angle is to be believed) was just an oopsy and completely pales in comparison to her having panel time in decades of Avengers books hanging with the good guys.

It's not as disturbing as a Ravens fan supporting Ray Rice, or an MLB fan arguing why his favorite player taking steroids was cool because everyone was doing it (mostly because that stuff actually happened, in reality, instead of in a comic), but it does make me wonder where that mindset comes from. The people I least want to hear arguments from on Wanda's status as a villain are her fans. They have an obvious bias and tend to argue with an agenda. I'd like to hear from people who couldn't care less about her, or don't know much about her but are only looking at canon as it currently exists. You'll also have Wanda-haters trolling those fans, and that can make the whole discussion painful, but I'm more curious to hear from casual readers of Marvel comics.

[Agent Z]

I can never understand the fascination by X-writers to seem to want to top each other with mutant deaths. Is it to serve the fanbase who really wants these perpetual tales of persecution and death? Shock value? Do these stories sell better than when they face an enemy like the Brood?




Magneto also makes a deliberte decision for the path he takes, going so far as planning to put people in crematoriums in NYC. Even if he was high on kick, that's a lot more messed up than anything Wanda is accused of.




It seems like few writers read or pay heed to the last two issues or so of CC. IMO was probably the best bandage of the state of affairs where Bendis left things going unresolved for many years. But even Bendis says he considers her a hero in the interview I quoted a few pages back. It's too bad he never really shows us this in his writing.

They do this because Marvel wants crimes against Mutants to be considered a special kind of evil from which no one can recover from (unless they're an X-Men). Seriously, compare this outrage over Decimation with the way human deaths or injuries in X-Men stories are either ignored, less focused on, dismissed as simple accidents or considered justified. Grant Morrison showed Magneto herding mutants into ovens and fans lost their minds over it and what we got was a retcon that was even more nonsensical than Children's Crusade.

Edit post: whoops my bad I meant to say Magneto in this post not Xavier. Sorry for the confusion guys. I don't know what came over me,

[stingnewell]

They do this because Marvel wants crimes against Mutants to be considered a special kind of evil from which no one can recover from (unless they're an X-Men). Seriously, compare this outrage over Decimation with the way human deaths or injuries in X-Men stories are either ignored, less focused on, dismissed as simple accidents or considered justified. Grant Morrison showed Xavier herding mutants into ovens and fans lost their minds over it and what we got was a retcon that was even more nonsensical than Children's Crusade.
Edit post: whoops my bad I meant to say Magneto in this post not Xavier. Sorry for the confusion guys. I don't know what came over me,

And Marvel is still trying to make me care about Xavier's death. Seriously Rogue take that ugly painting of Xavier off the mansion wall your credibility is waning.
Still Xavier a major dirtbag, brainwash Wolverine, mind wipes Cyclops, and has probably done other questionable immoral decisions.