THE definitive Avengers villain?

[Nomads1]

Ah, The Enchantress. I miss her.

Peace

[XPac]

I believe it was Roy Thomas who first defined them that way, though I think it was first proposed by some letter-writing fans as a way to define Wanda's hex power in a "scientific" way. Thomas used it and other writers ran with it. Especially in the '80s, when Marvel tried to define her powers very tightly and specify that her powers were only mutant, not magic (which never sticks because "she's a witch but her powers aren't magic" is extremely hard to make readers understand).



Byrne said he preferred the original, less scientific Stan Lee explanation that her powers simply cause bad luck, but he found a way to enjoy writing "probability" by coming up with that idea that altering probability is really a way of creating a new reality. Which eventually got taken up by Bendis, who however continued to refer to her powers as magic... it's all very confusing and the simplest thing is probably just to call it magic and forget about it.

I think a lot of writers (even pre-Bendis though his was the biggest jump) just kept scaling her powers upwards to the point where it needed to be constantly re-defined.

It went from bad luck to probability manipulation to chaos magic to flat out reality warping. There is a certain logical progression to all of it, I suppose. But yeah... in a lot of ways it might have been easier to just call it magic.

[Pat Thomas]

I think a lot of writers (even pre-Bendis though his was the biggest jump) just kept scaling her powers upwards to the point where it needed to be constantly re-defined.

It went from bad luck to probability manipulation to chaos magic to flat out reality warping. There is a certain logical progression to all of it, I suppose. But yeah... in a lot of ways it might have been easier to just call it magic.

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

[Nomads1]

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

Emma is not a very popular choice. Storm or Rogue would work better in your analogy (mostly because Jean Grey has long been dead again).

Peace

[CJStriker]

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

All of this Post, Well Said Pat Thomas!

Really, in the end you post just highlights the Fact that Bendis really just did not and still does not care, it was never about history or canon or who the Avengers where, it is what He wanted them to be and making His team with as much pain and drama to make it as dark as he could to sell shock story-lines. Sadly for a time it worked and led to Civil War and other Heroes vs. Heroes non-sense just to sell books.

So really, Wanda was re-conned in the lazies way I have ever seen done just cause 1 guy was Marvel's golden boy, that is really the only real reason.

As for if it was Emma Frost or anyone else made to do it, I say the same time, Re-conned and in the processes of being fixed I would fully support and hope for a conclusion to help put the character right.

[Pat Thomas]

Emma is not a very popular choice. Storm or Rogue would work better in your analogy (mostly because Jean Grey has long been dead again).

Peace

Storm would probably work best because she is beloved, and although not villainous in the past, she was a thief as a girl. Her motivation; Angry that
her marriage failed due to circumstances beyond her control. She could do some major killing, too. I truly wonder what opinions of her would be if
she was immediately written out of the whole MU after an incident like that for 10 years. Would all the new readers coming on board spew the same
venom that Wanda gets now? I also wonder if people who lean more towards the Avengers in this little rivalry would stoop so low as to characterize
her as a villain only, regardless of what history says? I feel confident the answer to that question would be mostly "no", at least by readers who could
overcome their resentment at Wanda's treatment.

[XPac]

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

I think she had some instances of large scale magic leading up to Disassembled, though again that was a MASSIVE JUMP. She had some nice magic feats during Busieks Avengers run. For example in JLA Avengers, she was able to prevent earths merging with her Chaos Magic. I think around that time, Wanda proved to be a VERY powerful character IF she had the time to focus her powers rather than throw a quickie hex spell.

During Byrne's West Coast Avengers run when she went nuts, she seemed pretty scary powerful too. Again, not Disassembled level... but her power level was clearly ramping up beyond being able to throw 2-3 hexex.

[krazijoe]

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

Didn't she create kids with Vision or was that a demon that did something...I forget...

[hawkeyefan]

Her powers were steadily ramped up over the years, I think. She did use her powers to allow her and the Vision to conceive, but that was later retconned by Byrne so that the kids were actually two parts of Master Pandemonium's soul. The reasoning behind that was that her powers were not strong enough to actually create life.

But at the start of Kurt Busiek's run, she was used as the focus for Morgan LeFay's reality changing spell. All of the world was rewritten into a fantasy-medieval setting. I'm sure that Wanda was only a part of that spell, and that much of it was Morgan's power herself, but there it is.

It really isn't that much of a leap from that point to giving her reality changing powers on her own. Disassembled and House of M definitely had some flaws, but I don't think that Wanda's increased ability was really one of them.

[Iron Maiden]

Her powers were steadily ramped up over the years, I think. She did use her powers to allow her and the Vision to conceive, but that was later retconned by Byrne so that the kids were actually two parts of Master Pandemonium's soul. The reasoning behind that was that her powers were not strong enough to actually create life.

But at the start of Kurt Busiek's run, she was used as the focus for Morgan LeFay's reality changing spell. All of the world was rewritten into a fantasy-medieval setting. I'm sure that Wanda was only a part of that spell, and that much of it was Morgan's power herself, but there it is.

It really isn't that much of a leap from that point to giving her reality changing powers on her own. Disassembled and House of M definitely had some flaws, but I don't think that Wanda's increased ability was really one of them.

IMO it is when you had other writers that claimed that the effect went all over the multiverses, making the effect incalculable. She would have to have the powers of one of the Elder Cosmic Entities like the Living Tribunal. And how come he wasn't upset about it? He came after Doom just because he used his pimp hand on Uatu.

Unless everything was just peachy with them and that's why they chose not to act. Just like the Living Tribunal chose not to act against Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet.

[Nomads1]

Wanda started to get out of the throw 2 or 3 hexes around the time she started studying with Agatha Harkness, during Englehart's run. Pretty soon after that, she was already the Avenger that left Ultron figuratively crapping in his metal pants, whenever he faced the team. She started to have more control of her powers, refining and tailor-maiking her spells or hexes and not getting so easily exhausted while using her powers. However, it was stll something very generic and undifined. Her studies in magic were brought up again during the years (such as in the Vision and Scarlet Witch maxi-series, or during Stern's run), and she started to have some mystical foes and hang around guys like Doc Strange. I liked Byrnes explanation that she manipulated probabilities, changing the odds to make something highly improbable a certainty. Still, after Byrne left, she went back to random powers (as well as power levels) as much as the stories dictated. And than i think Busielk, it was, put forth that her mutant power was actually an afinity with a mystical energy called Caos Magic, which, as the name implies, plays havoc with the natural laws of physics of our universe, making the imposible possible (I'm going by memory here, so I mat be getting some details wrong). Morgan Le Fey saw Wanda as a threat to her magic spell because of this. After that, most notedly during Johns run, when Wanda cast a spell using a pentagram to contain the spread of the red mist in Red Zone, Wanda's Witch side seemed to become quite evident. Personally, I liked it, because it grounded and defined a bit more her powers, and I always felt the Avengers always lacked some serious magic wielders (after all, they did routinely face mystical foes). However, along came Bendis and suddenly Wanda was a reality warper and nuts (and that was the one that was supposed to stick).

Peace

[TakoM]

IMO it is when you had other writers that claimed that the effect went all over the multiverses, making the effect incalculable. She would have to have the powers of one of the Elder Cosmic Entities like the Living Tribunal. And how come he wasn't upset about it? He came after Doom just because he used his pimp hand on Uatu.

Because it was an exception the Living Tribunal made that very clear the reason why he cursed Doom was he had god like powers & were fully responsible for his own doing.

In that state he hit Uatu which was only watching and the last time when the Red Hulk hit him Uatu got already mad. The Living Tribunal explanation was that from a god you could await more than what he did.

The problem is not only the Cosmic Entities also the real big guns are very often on the reserve bank when things like that happened. Under normal circumstances Wanda would at least with M-Day catch the interest of countless beings. Who were watching at this point over her shoulders. It was said earlier Marvel want the comic universe lent on the real live what in true means that they want to mimic the mix of light and darkness(maybe even more dark than real live) + reflect current event (9/11....Ukraine conflict, IS, NSA scandal). Logic comes really short on this as a result.
By the way reflection doesn't mean copy them 1:1 into the comic, it means to reduce it to the core and built than a superhero story around it. Lost control over your own secrete service/going to far(NSA scandal- Edward Snowden) is what e.g Secret Avengers and Captain America 2 reflect. The NA incursion story reflect a little bit what happened in the Ukraine conflict with we vs them and we have no choice.

My personal opinion is throw the light/shadow mix bound into the trash and stick with logic and that reflection stuff.

[Iron Maiden]

Because it was an exception the Living Tribunal made that very clear the reason why he cursed Doom was he had god like powers & were fully responsible for his own doing.

In that state he hit Uatu which was only watching and the last time when the Red Hulk hit him Uatu got already mad. The Living Tribunal explanation was that from a god you could await more than what he did.

But that was the Conquering Annihilating Doom that only had the combined powers of Kang (and kid Kang at that) and Annihilus. Doom himself really had no powers to add to the mix since most of his abilities comes from his tech, like Stark. That is not exactly god-like powers.

[Witchfan]

Why isn't Onslaught a choice in this poll? He made most of the Avengers disappear and brought Volume One to an end.

[TakoM]

I know it was like the worst Power Ranger enemy ever.
Kang powers came from 100% tec(Time-machine+ Armor), Doom has magic but also a time-machine himself(+Armor), Annihilus powers came from his cosmic staff.