THE definitive Avengers villain?

[stingnewell]

Why isn't Onslaught a choice in this poll? He made most of the Avengers disappear and brought Volume One to an end.

because he's a X-villain.

[Nomads1]

because he's a X-villain.

And lame as all hell out!

Peace

[stingnewell]

And lame as all hell out!

Peace

From what I understand he had potential but than it was drop, suddenly he needed Magneto's powers.

[XPac]

Why isn't Onslaught a choice in this poll? He made most of the Avengers disappear and brought Volume One to an end.

If you wanna be technical about it, I think it was actually the X-Men that made the Avengers disappear. But certainly Onslaught in his one story did make an impact. Shame the character was never really used well afterwards... though perhaps that might change with Axis to some degree.

[Kurt Busiek]

She did use her powers to allow her and the Vision to conceive,

No, she didn't. She used magic -- specifically, the amassed magic of an entire city of witches at the height of a fertility festival.

The reasoning behind that was that her powers were not strong enough to actually create life.

Which was dumb, because (a) it wasn't her powers, (b) life is not that hard to create -- rabbits can get pregnant parthogenetically if they're frightened -- and (c), if the amassed power of an entire city of etc. etc. etc. isn't enough to create babies, it's hard to believe that teenagers can manage it by accident.

But at the start of Kurt Busiek's run, she was used as the focus for Morgan LeFay's reality changing spell. All of the world was rewritten into a fantasy-medieval setting. I'm sure that Wanda was only a part of that spell, and that much of it was Morgan's power herself, but there it is.

As the story noted, the power came from the Twilight Sword. Morgan channeled it through Wanda, but it was a big honking battery of mystic energies.

kdb

[gurkle]

As the story noted, the power came from the Twilight Sword. Morgan channeled it through Wanda, but it was a big honking battery of mystic energies.

kdb

This be my only chance to note that even as villainous plans go, "goad every person who was ever an Avenger into re-starting the team so they'll go on a mission to find the Twilight Sword and bring us the one person we actually need" seems a bit complicated.

Yes, I know Mordred points out that they could have just kidnapped the Scarlet Witch, and Morgan is all about how getting the Avengers back together was part of the sport of it. Still, she could have thought this one through a little more.

I love the story, I just also love what a Rube Goldberg bad guy plan it turns out to be.

[hawkeyefan]

No, she didn't. She used magic -- specifically, the amassed magic of an entire city of witches at the height of a fertility festival.

Right. Sorry I summed it up so simply. But is it her mutant power that makes her so capable with magic? Doesn't it all come back to her powers? Or do you consider her mutant powers and magic ability separate? Like if she got hit with Forge's mutant nullifier thing, would she still be a powerful sorceress afterward?

For whatever reason, I always kind of linked the two.

Which was dumb, because (a) it wasn't her powers, (b) life is not that hard to create -- rabbits can get pregnant parthogenetically if they're frightened -- and (c), if the amassed power of an entire city of etc. etc. etc. isn't enough to create babies, it's hard to believe that teenagers can manage it by accident.

Yeah, I agree. I liked Byrne's Darker Than Scarlet story, but I didn't really like what happened to Billy and Tommy. And I didn't like that explanation at all.

As the story noted, the power came from the Twilight Sword. Morgan channeled it through Wanda, but it was a big honking battery of mystic energies.

kdb

Are you sure about that?

Just kidding....I knew there was more to it, but the years have taken their toll. I totally forgot about the sword. Thanks , Kurt.

[Rochedalaix]

I was out of reading comics for so long, that when I got to Avengers Disassembled in one of my first batches of back issues, I didn't understand
how Wanda was all of a sudden a reality warper. I read up past her being tutored by Agatha Harkness when I was a kid, and even as far as
the "Yesterday Quest" storyline where she learned her true past. Through all that time I was reading back then, Wanda usually had 2 good hexes
in her, and if she dug deep, 3. Harkness was able to help her channel her mutant power into some true witchcraft, but she even said that Wanda
would never be a great sorceress. I've since read everything in between when I originally stopped reading and now, and although she's been shown at
times to have a higher power level, she was never able to do any large-scale magic. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she becomes powerful
enough to first grant every hero's personal wish, and then later, utter 3 words and change the whole makeup of the world's population? Is it any wonder
that people who've read Avengers going back years and years don't like it when Wanda is referred to as a villain, when she never had the power to do
what she did, or a reason to seek the power in the first place. She was with the team all the way up to issue 500, still fighting bad guys. What happens
if Bendis decides Emma Frost's power comes back at Phoenix levels next issue of Uncanny X-Men, driving her crazy and killing anybody she thinks has
wronged her, and takes her out of the books for a decade? Would people think that was fair treatment? Why is okay for Wanda to be treated that way?

Yes I do think it is fair she was gone for over a decade and I think fans of Wanda should just be grateful she came back at all, and I would still think it was fair even if it happened to my favorite character Magik oh wait...

[Joe Acro]

because he's a X-villain.

I'd say we can't pigeon-hole Onslaught like that. He was developed in the X-titles, for sure, but he was really a Marvel Earth villain (much like other event villains).

I wouldn't say making the Avengers disappear makes him the definitive Avengers villain, since he also did the same for the FF, among others.

[stingnewell]

Well one thing is clear after Heroes Reborn I guess you can say Decimation was just payback as the saying goes "An eye for eye." Its only fair really.

[Kurt Busiek]

Right. Sorry I summed it up so simply. But is it her mutant power that makes her so capable with magic? Doesn't it all come back to her powers? Or do you consider her mutant powers and magic ability separate? Like if she got hit with Forge's mutant nullifier thing, would she still be a powerful sorceress afterward?

For whatever reason, I always kind of linked the two.

They're linked, but what her mutant power gives her is the inborn ability to channel chaos magic. She -- particularly at the time of that story -- also had magical skills. Skill and power are two different things.

So hit her with the nullifier, and she'd still have skills, but she wouldn't so easily tap into power sources. That doesn't mean the power sources aren't relevant -- if she does hugely magical things with huge magic, that doesn't mean she's wicked powerful and can do that stuff whenever she wants, it means she can do things with huge magic. If it's around to be used.

So now, it doesn't all come back to her powers, any more than a light bulb lighting up is all about the bulb and not about the power source.

Englehart wrote in a city of witches whipping up a megastorm of fertility magic for a reason; without that, the pregnancy wouldn't have been possible. Much as I wrote in the Twilight Sword for a similar reason.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

This be my only chance to note that even as villainous plans go, "goad every person who was ever an Avenger into re-starting the team so they'll go on a mission to find the Twilight Sword and bring us the one person we actually need" seems a bit complicated.

Yes, I know Mordred points out that they could have just kidnapped the Scarlet Witch, and Morgan is all about how getting the Avengers back together was part of the sport of it. Still, she could have thought this one through a little more.

I love the story, I just also love what a Rube Goldberg bad guy plan it turns out to be.

Morgan likes that kind of thing.

kdb

[dragonmp93]

Well one thing is clear after Heroes Reborn I guess you can say Decimation was just payback as the saying goes "An eye for eye." Its only fair really.

I hope that AXIS is to get even (again ) for what happened in AvX.

[klinton]

No, she didn't. She used magic -- specifically, the amassed magic of an entire city of witches at the height of a fertility festival.




Which was dumb, because (a) it wasn't her powers, (b) life is not that hard to create -- rabbits can get pregnant parthogenetically if they're frightened -- and (c), if the amassed power of an entire city of etc. etc. etc. isn't enough to create babies, it's hard to believe that teenagers can manage it by accident.



As the story noted, the power came from the Twilight Sword. Morgan channeled it through Wanda, but it was a big honking battery of mystic energies.

kdb

I could hug you all day for this post! Thank you.

I've tried to explain this to people so.many.times. It's quite clear that few persons with strong opinions about Wanda and/or the nature of she and Vision's children have actually bothered to read the story.

But as to the OP's original inqiry, it's a full toss up between Kang and Ultron. They both stand pretty much on par for the spot of the Avengers greatest foe. I literally can't begin to place one over the other with any sort of certainty.

[stingnewell]

I hope that AXIS is to get even (again ) for what happened in AvX.

Well I hope more X-men die in the event. Though thats wishful thinking so instead I'm just hoping its the students there due for dramatic deaths for the X-men's incompetence as teachers.