THE definitive Avengers villain?

[yet another]

Was there no room left for Hood on the list? He caused them quite a bit of trouble the last few years before Hickman.

He still would come after Ultron and Kang though.

[stingnewell]

Was there no room left for Hood on the list? He caused them quite a bit of trouble the last few years before Hickman.

He still would come after Ultron and Kang though.

I never saw Hood as an Avenger villain he seemed more like he would fit better in a Punisher or Doctor Strange story.

From recollection, Korvac wasn't a villain in the Korvac saga (although he was in his previous appearance)? He was - according to Moondragon, anyway - an attempted saviour of mankind who perished because of the Avengers' misguided heroic zeal. And he, after all, was the one to resurrect the Avengers, practically instantaneously.

It's true that when she wrecked the Avengers, Wanda was mentally unstable. But then that's true of many villains - Graviton, for example, doesn't exactly play with a full deck. And since Wanda warped reality then an obvious point of comparison would be Mad Jim Jaspers - who, as his name suggests, was mad. We don't really know the extent that he would be villainous without his mental instability - although he was a Conservative MP, which in an Alan Moore story, is unlikely to be a good sign

I think Wanda was - during Avengers Disassembled and House of M - pretty much a full-on villain, in a similar sense to many not necessarily wicked but unfortunately unhinged villains of the past. She isn't now, of course, because they decided to try to retcon her actions and feature her as a hero. (Whether they have done this effectively is a matter of opinion.) And that in itself is fair enough - she's too powerful to be an effective repeat villain. Still, she deserves to be on this list in the same way that other reformed villains - Emma Frost, and the many other criminals that have filled out the cast of both the Avengers and X-Men - deserve to be on the list of top villains as well.

Fair enough I like your approach of not taking one side over the other. As to Korvac even if he did won his human nature would have destroyed the universe out of anger over other abstracts.

[yet another]

Pfft yeah sure. I rate Nefaria higher than him, Hood just lucked out on his later victories due to plot connivance with the one Inhuman prisoner who was conveniently Black Bolt's trusted assistance.

I did not mean Hood would come _directly_ after Ultron and Kang, only that his inclusion in the list would not in any way threaten their supremacy as Avengers villains.

[stingnewell]

I did not mean Hood would come _directly_ after Ultron and Kang, only that his inclusion in the list would not in any way threaten their supremacy as Avengers villains.

Ah my mistake on that sorry. But I still rate Hood as someone who would fit more closely in the realm of Punisher or Dr. Strange or mainly in the category of street level and mystical.

[Panic]

Ultron is the only exclusive Avengers villain on the list, has to be him

Not really true, Ultron has battled the Thing, Iron Man, the Runaways, the Fantastic Four and Inhumans (iirc and Wiki is to be believed).

[CSTowle]

I voted the Scarlet Witch, but Rogue might be a contender. She whupped them all just about single-handedly (let the rest of her crew handle mop-up work, but she was by far the heavy hitter).

[gurkle]

Who on the list has murdered more avengers?

Wanda murdered zero Avengers. Even if you take Disassembled at face value, Dr. Strange says she unconsciously caused a lot of chaos and improbable things to happen and the Avengers' worst fears to come true, in the process of which three Avengers died. There was no indication that she intended to kill them even if she was aware of what she was doing, which Dr. Strange says she wasn't. So even before all three Avengers came back to life, it was manslaughter at best. Actual villains have actually managed to kill an Avenger on purpose.

The things people will say...

[AcesX1X]

Well, if you are going by that standard, Korvac should be the Number One because he wiped them all out at once in 1977. Of course they were all resurrected, just as most of those "killed" by the Witch were.

Wanda was only MADE into a villain in the 21st century, approximately 40 years after the Avengers were formed, and even then she was obviously mentally unbalanced after having her mind violated multiple times by evil men. And now she's being reformed by the current writers. To assume she's on an equal footing with villains who have plagued the team for decades, having not experienced those conditions, and who will never reform, is not logical IMO. I know this is comics, but I can't imagine any other character who wouldn't have broken under those conditions.

Her inclusion here is up to the OP, but IMO she has no business here, either.

lol "most" i guess since she's such a darling all that mental unbalance doesn't count against her. kang should flirt with more avengers, maybe he'd be forgiven too.

[Vic Vega]

Wanda murdered zero Avengers. Even if you take Disassembled at face value, Dr. Strange says she unconsciously caused a lot of chaos and improbable things to happen and the Avengers' worst fears to come true, in the process of which three Avengers died. There was no indication that she intended to kill them even if she was aware of what she was doing, which Dr. Strange says she wasn't. So even before all three Avengers came back to life, it was manslaughter at best. Actual villains have actually managed to kill an Avenger on purpose.

The things people will say...

Korvac deliberately offed every Avenger except Thor and Moodragon.

He brought them back just before he committed Suicide By Magic Hammer, but he still deliberately killed way more Avengers than anybody before or since.

Wanda was in a fugue state during disassembled and in any event didn't manage to kill nearly as many Avengers as Korvac did (and since Jack of Hearts is an energy being and Vision is an Android 2 of her casualties were effectively unkillable to begin with).

[AcesX1X]

i'm pretty sure murder still counts no matter what miraculous resurrection takes place.

[Oberon]

Don't bother better to leave them in denial.

Exactly. Pietro and Wanda's sister, Lorna, did some nasty things too, while possessed as well, but she seems to be given the benefit of the doubt, unlike Scarlet Witch.

It is discrimination most likely. Certainly scape-goat-ism.

Just like the Salem Witches and Witches around the world through time. *not really witches, but blamed for any and every thing bad*. So the current crop of haters, mostly mutant/X-fans have resorted to a persecution attitude, that actually reflects on their own evil thoughts. Don't take issue with me, psychologists have said this for ages. We project out our fear, anger, etc on convenient scapegoats, with "witches" being near the top of the list.

[AcesX1X]

discrimination? really? against the person who took the avengers apart from the inside and crippled a whole race after throwing a tantrum?

even if she is better (which hasn't been proven at all mind you) she should be recovering at a mental hospital, not serving on the front lines.

and i'm pretty sure quicksilver and lorna get a lot of criticism as well. their crimes were just less severe than scarlet's, so you'll probably see less of it.

[Oberon]

Don't bother better to leave them in denial.

Discrimination is the singling out of a 'type' and then persecuting them for it.

Wolverine, has, without remorse, killed many. He was not always mind-controlled. He decides as judge, jury and executioner. Others have said, and proven, in my mind, that Wanda did not intentionally try to kill those Avengers. They were things that happened as a result of her craziness. Not direct actions on her part, which would be murder. You know, like Wolverine has done.

Wanda is actually one of the greatest heroines of all, has sacrificed quite a bit of her own happiness in fact.

She has never deliberately committed such a grave act of violence. She has been punished for the actions of her crazy behavior.

Has Wolverine? Has Rogue? (I would say, yes, but also not really held to the same standard that many here hold Wanda too.)
Has Cyclops? Whether deliberate killing of Prof X (at least) I would say there is some punishment, but again, he's not being held to the same standard as you hold Wanda to.
Was Polaris punished for her role in the Mutant Massacre? Not really, she was a "victim", possessed by Malice. Malice may be a deadly and evil being, but Chton would be much more evil, much more capable of committing evil through a human vessel. Lorna gets a pass that Wanda never will.

All characters, especially all the ones I mention go through the typical story/soap device of rotating (in no particular order) through 3 primary roles:

Victim, Victimizer, and Redemptionist. Every character needs to walk the path of redemption. If only some would let them.

[gurkle]

discrimination? really? against the person who took the avengers apart from the inside and crippled a whole race after throwing a tantrum?

Entirely out of character and impossible to reconcile with her powers as described for 40 years; retconned away as being an actual supervillain's fault. To be on topic, if your villainy has no setup, is totally out of character and depends on developing all kinds of powers you never had before, that's not a very good villain.

even if she is better (which hasn't been proven at all mind you) she should be recovering at a mental hospital, not serving on the front lines.

and i'm pretty sure quicksilver and lorna get a lot of criticism as well. their crimes were just less severe than scarlet's, so you'll probably see less of it.

Debatable whether QS's crimes were less severe than SW's (he was out of character in HoM and Son of M too, but he was portrayed as being in his right mind). Anyway Wanda was out of the comics for many years, which is the equivalent of recuperating. It's just silly to demand punishment for a character who's already been punished in every way possible (being banned from comics for years, being stabbed through the gut and killed for a while) particularly while QS doesn't - and probably shouldn't - pay much of a price for being behind it.

Best to blame the whole story on Doom (aka Bendis) and be done with it.

[AcesX1X]

your opinion of whether or not that was entirely out of character is just that. opinion.

what is fact is that she played a villain on three separate occasions after joining the avengers -- after she was already serving as a villain before even joining them.

it is for those reasons that she belongs on the poll. and i think it's really wrong of you to try and discredit that. she belongs in this list as much as kang or graviton or anyone else does. you can disagree with her inclusion on personal appeal, but please make it known that it's a personal preference.